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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 12:25 am 
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Champion Bird
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That's a definite yes hhh, photos would be great. I missed your email it was in the junkmail, mark

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 12:47 am 
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Dapper Duck
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Wildman,
What is it that people are trying to restore the breed to?
apart from pearl eye and decent colored legs which I have been able to retain with diet.
shape which is fairly good from norm black blood lines.
height is the only thing I am aiming at.
selecting and breeding with the tallest hens is this years plan


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 12:37 pm 
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Dapper Duck
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hhh,

The question of restoring the Malay to a former standard is a hypothetical based on the quote from ChickenPox.

I guess "restoring to what?" is a question to the forum, to those that believe the breed has been largely compromised in this country. I would like to hear from others (like ChickenPox) who might have something to say about this and from those that believe they are doing something about it (like ChickenPox) and outcrossing to other Asian Gamefowl breeds.

If there is hard evidence (as ChickenPox says) that cross breeding kept the breed going at a time of declining interest then there may be some problems.

Characteristics of a Malay are a whole lot more than 3 curves, leg and eye colour. The breed is so distinct that nearly all its features are found only in the Malayoid breeds and it seems all the unique Malayoid features only come together on the Malay Game itself.

So has anyone else got evidences of widespread phenotype problems with the Malay in this country?

And is anyone else willing to talk about their experimental Malay breeding with other Malayoid breeds?


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 5:32 pm 
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Dapper Duck
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Well I'm only a baby in Malay
But I think if a bird has a chartistic you admire or need and its not in your fowls and you can't buy one that has it, you should experiment in introducing that aspect in,
But I think you should defiantly keep them separate and maybe only keep one or two of the out crosses to slowly improve a few fowls separately before you mix it main stream,
My short time breeding these birds has shown me that there are that many variables and to get them all to line up is not easy,
I know of a well known breeder and successful shower that mixed shamo in there birds a while ago for height and lots of people think they are great!
The UK birds I have seen photos of look like they have shamo in them,
Malays seem to be getting looser in the feather or are looser than i would like, which I think will be the is next challenge in the breed over the next few years.
The problem is if you don't add the aspect to your birds you might be twenty years breeding until one pops up and then on the other hand I suppose the thing with a outcross is you will bring in other traits that are not wanted and its hard to breed out.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 8:48 pm 
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Dapper Duck
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as Wildman states there is more than just the 3 curves, leg and eye color. phenotype combs as chickenpox states are easy to remedy.
however this does not give you the genotype needed to breed 100% walnut/strawberry comb. I have not seen any pea combs, rose comb or single comb in any of our hatchings in the 5 years we have been breeding malay.( I know several of you have devoted a hell of a lot more time to breeding than I have but you have to start somewhere). with the no show of any other comb other than walnut this shows the genotype of our birds combs is RR,PP. even with the introduction of 2 new hens from the kevin gibbs line there was still no sign of pea or rose combs. could this mean not all malay lines in the post war era were infused with foreign blood. there is also a lot of thought to be put into the suggestion that walnut combs originated from breeding pea and rose comb. what was the rose comb bird existing in india Pakistan and asia so many thousands of years ago. maybe pea and rose comb originated from crossing walnut and single comb(malay X red jungle fowl)or is that what a reza asil is?

looking at the photo of the malay pair sent to crystal palace in 1910, they don't represent the birds depicted in the painting that's with oaklands postings or the outline drawing in the 1935 featheredworld.
what are we looking for to breed to for it to be called a malay.
personally I am aiming at the painting that accompanies oaklands postings.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 9:59 pm 
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Gallant Game
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hensbyshenhouse wrote:
as Wildman states there is more than just the 3 curves, leg and eye color. phenotype combs as chickenpox states are easy to remedy.
however this does not give you the genotype needed to breed 100% walnut/strawberry comb. I have not seen any pea combs, rose comb or single comb in any of our hatchings in the 5 years we have been breeding malay.( I know several of you have devoted a hell of a lot more time to breeding than I have but you have to start somewhere). with the no show of any other comb other than walnut this shows the genotype of our birds combs is RR,PP. even with the introduction of 2 new hens from the kevin gibbs line there was still no sign of pea or rose combs. could this mean not all malay lines in the post war era were infused with foreign blood. there is also a lot of thought to be put into the suggestion that walnut combs originated from breeding pea and rose comb. what was the rose comb bird existing in india Pakistan and asia so many thousands of years ago. maybe pea and rose comb originated from crossing walnut and single comb(malay X red jungle fowl)or is that what a reza asil is?
Malay should never throw chicks with Straight/Erect/Single comb or Rose-comb, if they did the parents were not Malay’s in the first place.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 10:19 pm 
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Dapper Duck
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that is absolutely 100% correct chickenpox.
depending on the genotype of pea comb and strawberry comb, rose and single are possible.
infusing breeds that don't breed true to walnut/strawberry comb can only change genotype for the progeny, therefore you are breeding away from a trait that defines a malay from a crossbreed.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 12:54 pm 
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Dapper Duck
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This link:

http://www.asilclub.spruz.com/forums/?page=post&id=8EF7C43C-D928-4283-A4C2-43E62FA94E66&cachecommand=bypass&pageindex=4

Makes some very interesting comments and comparisons between the modern exhibition Malay from Europe and the South Indian Asil (with pictures) and fits this discussion nicely.

The assumption is that the South Indian Asil is what UK breeders based their breeding on to develop the exhibition "Malay".


Last edited by wildman on Tue Feb 17, 2015 3:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
url tag for external link


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 2:27 pm 
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Gallant Game
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Willem is BYP member and so are a couple others…

I have read all that before, thanks just the same ( Brother – Sir – Mr.Wildman ) you made all that stuff stuck in my head.

The Asil-Malay has a longer back with a thinner frame from the English Malay breed, I still have no clue why the English people preferred Malay with a short roach back.

The same similarity to those in Pakistan/India you can produce by mixing Shamo blood, it is amazing the diversity of choice you can get from same clutch, it is what I like most not knowing the outcome, but you guaranteed they always breed tall Orientals.

One of my favorite diversity.
Image

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 5:15 pm 
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Dapper Duck
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That bird does grab my attention too for many reasons ChickenPox.

I presume the dropped wing/ fanned tail pose is his "lookout I'm coming at ya" dance.

Do you have any more pics of him? (front on, relaxed stance, etc)

And what is his genetic make-up?

Are you planning to fix a type with your experimental breeding?


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 11:32 pm 
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Dapper Duck
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interesting reading Wildman,
the last postings by 'Junior' in that forum brings to the point why show standards have been set. show standards for asil have now been set so there is a common ground for people to breed to and be judged by. 'Junior ' didn't like the phrase 'not all asil are game' he later states Brother, I agree with all of your message save this phrase, which I completely disagree with totally. By definition, an Asil IS game. Asil is an adjective, and when satisfied, can be applied to the bird as a noun. It is not used to denote a breed exclusively, as we are typically accustommed to, as a White Leghorn hen that doesn't lay, is still a leghorn.
therefore Willem should take heed of what his signature states The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names.
malay are malay. they have been shown in poultry shows since 1845, with a standard published in 1865. how much has the standard changed since then? or do we still have an ancient breed that is still breeding true 148 years after the standard was set.
malay crossed with other birds may produce desi fowl and asil look a likes. they may produce asil, gameness in every bird varies.
if an asil doesn't fight he is a desi fowl. he has to look and breed to a set standard to be called a malay.
chickenpox, your bird is an interesting cross, but don't class him as malay. call him CP01 or CP03 or malenoid but not malay.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 1:22 am 
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Gallant Game
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hensbyshenhouse, I agree with you he is not a Malay, I put that photo here to show diversity, how genetics can take you back to Malay ancestry.


Wildman, I will briefly answer your questions and let the matter rest so the subject doesn’t go off topic..

This bird is still alive, his genetics make-up is almost entirely Shamo with small portion Malay.

Yes, I have been and currently still involved with Malay experiments.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 1:58 pm 
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Champion Bird
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Are Malay Game flyers? How high should the boundary fence be? Any other advice appreciated, mark

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 5:50 pm 
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Gallant Game
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malay are flat out getting 1.2 m off t

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 6:41 pm 
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Champion Bird
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thanks manzo, good news

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