Backyard Poultry Forum • View topic - MARANS * Breed Profile *

Backyard Poultry Forum

Chickens, waterfowl & all poultry - home of exhibition & backyard poultry in Australia & New Zealand
Login with a social network:
It is currently Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:37 pm

All times are UTC + 10 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 112 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 6:22 pm 
Offline
Dapper Duck
Dapper Duck

Joined: Tue May 26, 2009 2:52 pm
Posts: 73
Location: Great Southern, West Australia
Hi David,

That is why I'm so interested in Ruff's MaransXIndian birds - I'm waiting in anticipation as to what the "taste sensation" outcome is going to be...

Gerry


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 6:32 pm 
Offline
Champion Bird
Champion Bird
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2008 7:19 am
Posts: 865
Location: Milvale NSW
Type shouldn't be that hard to keep once you have got it but the egg colour is what makes a marans a marans i could have a wheaton hen here with feathers on her legs but if she doesn't lay the dark egg thats all she is a wheaton feathered leg hen she not a marans...

It's the egg colour that makes these birds what they are so i hope every one that is working on this breed here is all working for the same result and thats a bird that can lay as dark as egg that we can get here in oz .

I'm not sure if we can match what we see in the overseas birds but i don't see why we all arn't trying to get it.


just my thoughts. But i could be wrong

cheers squeak1

_________________
breeder of GOLD & SILVER CAMPINESBuff Leghorns LargeGrey Silkies and working kelpie sheep dogs.
http://www.getitdunworkingdogs.blogspot.com


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 6:53 pm 
Offline
Dapper Duck
Dapper Duck

Joined: Tue May 26, 2009 2:52 pm
Posts: 73
Location: Great Southern, West Australia
I agree Squeak1, the standard should reflect all the features that make up the breed - if the standard only describe type we will loose egg colour, as it happened in other breeds.

Gerry


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 9:20 am 
Offline
Phoenix
Phoenix
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2006 1:08 pm
Posts: 8302
Location: Sydney
The Cochin Man wrote:
Overseas research also indercates problems with moisture retention when there is too much pigmenting of the outer shell which is the case in really dark eggs such as 6 and more likely above 6.


Can you please supply a link to this research so I can add it to the volumes of stuff I already have.

I have, in all my breeding, found that the real problem in hatching is the toughness of the membrane and that humidity is critical in the later stages of development.

Hopefully, your link might provide answers I need.

J

_________________
Some mornings I wake up grumpy but most mornings I let her sleep in.
Just Marans


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 9:38 am 
jocler do you know the longer a hen retains the egg the less the embryo will develop and the brownest eggs are retained the longest.

there is supposed to be a relationship between eggs shape and colour as well. ball shape eggs are supposed to be darkest. indian game lay ball shape eggs. this appears dominant out of 3 of my indian crosses 2 are laying ball shaped eggs. ballshaped eggs also have hatchability problems in an incubator. under hens they are fine. they appear harder and i think they need higher humidity.


Top
  
 
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 9:46 am 
Offline
Site Administrator
Site Administrator
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 11, 2008 8:44 am
Posts: 31509
Location: Morayfield, SEQ
ruff wrote:
jocler do you know the longer a hen retains the egg the less the embryo will develop and the brownest eggs are retained the longest.


Yes the brownest eggs are the slowest to travel down the oviduct, but it's not true that the embryo develops less. In fact, the reverse is true. Once fertilisation takes place cell division begins and continues while the egg is kept at body temperature. That's why the amount of development at time of lay can vary. Cell division stops, or at least slows significantly at lay because the temperature changes. The suspended development picks up again when those eggs begin to be incubated by a broody, or in an incubator.

_________________
image
Backyard Poultry Forum


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 9:55 am 
Is it possible then, that they might be a day earlier to hatch in the incubator? Or is the extra time of development in the oviduct much shorter than that?


Top
  
 
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 10:07 am 
the incubation book by anderson brown mentions the embryo development may get to such a stage that it is lethal. these eggs showing up as failing to develop.

the incubation book by dr anderson brown & g e s roberts. 2nd ed.

page 73.

quote:

dormant period after laying

cooling after laying prevents further progress, and the embryo lies dormant until it is warmed again. the dormant embryo can survive quite happily for periods of a week or so, but if the egg was retained in the uterus too long, development can have reached a stage where normal chilling and storage are lethal. some birds persistantly lay eggs like these. they are not infertile, but very early dead germs.


i was thinking a way around it would be setting eggs as soon as they are laid.


Top
  
 
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 10:17 am 
Offline
Junior Champion Bird
Junior Champion Bird

Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 5:06 pm
Posts: 720
Interesting discussion and it's nice to see a reference. How long (retention in uterus) is too long? Does the breed (those laying the darkest eggs) suffer the same problem in their native homeland? I guess this could be tested if someone had the time and space.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 10:55 am 
Offline
Phoenix
Phoenix
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2006 1:08 pm
Posts: 8302
Location: Sydney
Ruff,

Do they give a percentage of failure to hatch or is it purely theory? I can understand the logistics and mechanics of "why", but I would like to read some of the research.

In all my marans breeding I have noticed that the egg membrane is tougher than one would expect. This would also effect the permeable qualities of the egg and shell and show up as moisture retention plus the embryo not developing plus obviously DIS. I did notice that the problem is worse in pullet eggs so stopped using their eggs until they get up to the mid 60 to low 70 grams in size.

I think this question posed by Cochin Man here viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7986102 is also indicative of the same problem.

J

_________________
Some mornings I wake up grumpy but most mornings I let her sleep in.
Just Marans


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 11:54 am 
jocler no more info on this particular point but the book has graphs, tables and photos of many other things. everyone who hatches birds should have this book. it has a whole chapter on fertility and another on hatchability. it even metions how to hatch cassowory and reptile eggs.

i cannot stress more the importance of this book to anyone planning on breeding anything out of an egg.


Top
  
 
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 11:57 am 
Offline
Old Mother Goose
Old Mother Goose
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2006 5:06 pm
Posts: 5886
Location: Canberra
ruff convinced me to get it and it is truly the "go-to" book on the topic.

I will have a look tonight if ruff doesnt come back with some graphs.

Cheers
Raf

_________________
Breeder of Blue Laced Red Wyandottes.

See www.bluelacedgold.wordpress.com for details


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 1:56 pm 
Offline
Site Administrator
Site Administrator
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 11, 2008 8:44 am
Posts: 31509
Location: Morayfield, SEQ
I have the first edition, so it may be out of date - I don't know. It has that quote on the same page, though. It's pretty general and doesn't give details. I can't see any graphs.

It seems to me that it's the chilling of the egg at lay that's the problem in longer laying times, so perhaps Ruff's suggestion of frequent collection and popping them straight in the incubator may have an effect. I don't know - normally I would say that it's best to let the egg cool so that the air sac can develop.

If I had a bird that I suspected might be producing these eggs, I would take notice of how long it was between eggs being laid, and I would also be cracking the eggs open when they were laid and having a look at the white spot in the yolk and take note of its size.

I can't see it being a problem in a brown egg layer that's laying at a rate that would normally be considered as within a healthy range.

_________________
image
Backyard Poultry Forum


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 6:37 pm 
Offline
Site Administrator
Site Administrator
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 11, 2008 8:44 am
Posts: 31509
Location: Morayfield, SEQ
Some interesting snippets about brown eggs. I have always accepted the reasoning that a brown egg might get browner if it stays in the uterus longer and therefore had more porphyrin deposited on it. It's kind of logical. Maybe that's true, or maybe not. When I've looked around I've found some information that's made me question that belief. I've read it in various books and on various websites and it seems to be the accepted view. Has anyone got references that prove that?

The reason I'm wondering is because an alternative possibility when hens lay less frequently, is that the ovum is released much later, but the egg spends the normal amount of time (10-12 hours) in the uterus and then gets laid. I'm not saying this is right - but it is a possibility that the brown pigment is related to the quality of the porphyrin, not the time that the egg spends there.

I started wondering this when I read some articles that stated that if a brown egg was retained for longer due to stress or other reasons, that it would actually become lighter. Here's one example:

Quote:
1. When laying hens are stressed some retain their eggs in the shell gland beyond the normal time of laying and this can result in the deposition of extra-cuticular calcium which makes brown eggs appear paler. 2. Three different types of enriched modified cage were compared: the location where eggs were laid was recorded and shell colour was measured using a reflectometer. 3. In 2 types of cage with enclosed nest boxes more eggs (80%) were laid in the nests than in a design with nest hollows in the open part of the cage (41%). 4. The eggs from the cages with enclosed nests were darker (had less extraneous calcium) than those with open nest hollows. This implies that in the designs with nest boxes fewer eggs had been retained and the hens may have been less stressed. 5. The results support previous evidence that to reduce stress and improve welfare it is desirable to provide enclosed nest sites for caged laying hens.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9925325

I also read some other material which suggested that the laying down of the pigment is not constant. It varies according to the reproductive cycle. That being the case, I can't assume that more time in the uterus automatically means more colour.

Here's one example of a reference that indicates porphyrin levels changing.
Quote:
Shell reflectance decreased and the amount of porphyrin deposited increased linearly 20 to 24 h after oviposition of the preceding egg. Porphyrin deposition was slightly higher at the 23-h stage in the high whitening population but similar amounts of porphyrin were deposited on the shell during the final stage of shell formation in both groups. The coating on the shell responsible for whitening was deposited during the hour prior to oviposition.

http://www.ophsource.org/periodicals/op ... LN.1852696

There have been cases of eggs getting stuck in hens for days and having to be removed. Even in brown egg layers the colour isn't significantly different. I suppose that depends where and how it's stuck, but you would think you'd get a really dark one at some stage.

I know I'm probably wrong here as I'm not even convinced myself. I'm just thinking 'out loud'. There isn't much written about egg colour and how it happens and when you do find something it's usually very general. I have read the observation that less frequent layers produce darker eggs and I wonder if there could be another reason for that to happen.

_________________
image
Backyard Poultry Forum


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 8:31 pm 
here is a marans egg showing marks caused by the pigment coating being removed (when the coating was still wet) by the nesting material.

Image

this egg is brown underneath and the coating has made it browner. i have been told the egg can be white underneath and the coating can still cause a brown egg. the browness of the egg varies during the lay alternating from some darker and some lighter but in no particular order. some eggs are spotted, some are not. it appears the spots on the egg is the brown coating not being deposited over the whole egg as the browner eggs seem to have a better film over them than the spotted. however this is not always the case as some eggs can be browner than others even with the brown spots.

i have only been looking at this for a few weeks as my birds lay. i am waiting on some malay x marans cross to come into lay as the malay hen had a white egg. the eggs of the marans x indian have a browner shell than the pure indian and they are browner still with the dark film coating deposited by the hen. i have found this coating very difficult to remove when it is dry.


Top
  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 112 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next

All times are UTC + 10 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
©2004-2014 Backyardpoultry.com. Content rights reserved
freestone