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 Post subject: Re: Cochin Breed Profile
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 2:34 am 
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Superior Bird
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I'm trying to follow the standards argument Timbo but as always the pictures of your birds are a distraction, absolutely fantastic. There musn't be anything approaching them here in Australia or else we'd be seeing some pictures for comparison posted. It's called Cochin Envy, we all suffer from from it, but not all of us are moved to criticism, some of us are just pleased to see your pics.

The one thing I don't like about your birds is they are in your yard and not mine. :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Cochin Breed Profile
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:39 am 
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Showy Hen
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Nice work Denis :wink: The last line was a killer! :lol: :lol: :lol:

I honestly don't mean it to be an argument, all I'm trying to say is you guys are setting a standard for a breed, so don't shoot at the moon, or yourselves in the foot. The breed will move on, whether that being forwards or backwards. Just ensure it is documented. For instance as I was saying about the points C/GM made. If the standard says one thing, then don't add your own bit until you have founded a breed club, formed a committee, then thrash out out what standards are desirable and what are attainable.


Here is the instance, the picture below of a blue hen, that featured as the desired type, from Edition 2 through to edition 4
Image
Then this is the bird type to acquire in the 5th edition
Image
In the sixth edition if anyone has it the cock birds are horrendous, but this buff, has unsuitably had her colour edited to impress.
Image

Look at the lovely rich colour of my cheating birds. It took my about 10 seconds with more time it would be a more professional job! You can see the same picture ealier with the real tone of colour
Image

But the total change in the look of the bird visually has not been supported by changing the text by one syllable. So you can read the text of the standard, then look at the photo, and you would think you are talking about two different breeds.

Tim :D :wink:

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Last edited by Timbo on Thu May 19, 2011 6:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Cochin Breed Profile
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:45 am 
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Old Mother Goose
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Timbo wrote:
.......Here is the instance, the picture below of a blue hen, that featured as the desired type, from Edition 2 through to edition 4
Image

Tim :D :wink:


Very interesting reading Tim, and great pictures. Feel free to head over to the WYandotte Profile and do the same to that thread! :mrgreen:

In my opinion the change in what the standard calls for has also occurred in the Wyandotte. In fact, your bird pictured above is almost what the Wyandotte Standard Calls for in term of overall shape (excuse feather leg, yellow leg, lack of rose comb, and fluffy bum). The angle and shape of the tail is what I am aiming for in my wyandottes, only with a longer curve from the neck across the back.

The bench seems to call for a big round fluff ball. I think the wyandotte standard has moved a long way from the original breed which was a tighter and had a flatter back.

This is a little relevent as Cochin was used in the creation of the Wyandotte. You can see it clearly.

Thanks Tim. Facinating.
Raf

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 Post subject: Re: Cochin Breed Profile
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 5:18 pm 
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Champion Bird
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Thanks for the photos Timbo I am still trying to get my head around uploading any of my photos will get there some day.

As to the pale buffs in the U.K, I had forgotten when I replied to the topic originally that any remnants to the pure buff line tend to bleach in the outdoors. It is the "made up ones" that tend not to go pale in the weather. I don't know why, its one of those mysteries I suppose.

I agree with your thoughts in re pointy tail I would just add that as long as the bird has plenty of width in the cushion then I would be happy.

I have found from experience that the pointy tails birds are often narrow in the cushion and resemble the style of a Sussex or similar.

I would consider in my opinion that the buff male in the show cage as good as specimen as you will find. Good full chest ex colour, foot feather and good rise of cushion ect

The white you refer to, I would consider too flat in the chest and I prefer a bit more rise in the tail as I believe this balances the bird better.
I tend to be a bit more lenient as to yellow legs as I feel our numbers are to scare to rule out an otherwise excellent Cochin just because they have white legs. When we have plenty out there like that buff male then we can get more busy with the hatchet!

Keep the photos coming ect as it is great to see what is happening over in the U.K. re the Cochins

Cheers Paul


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 Post subject: Re: Cochin Breed Profile
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:54 pm 
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Showy Hen
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White legs are a problem with the white gene being dominant over yellow, And only about two years ago, one of my buff cock birds recieved best in show at Moreton in the Marsh, and he had the whitest legs you you could imagine. Whiter than a pom off the plane on Bondie beach! :lol: :lol:
It might be a thought to get a wyandotte to cross, Raf's birds have some really good leg colouring. The Comb is easier to breed out. But everything and everyone has to start somewhere. I still have my favorite black cochin, called Barry White, who has white legs and curly toe, but he is 11 years old and my favourite.
We would all like to win the lottery, but the reality is we have to get on with day to day life! :P :? :wink:
For the cochin archive here is Sampson Winner of the Birmingham cup ( The main poultry cup in Britain) in 1860 and 1861. So you can see where we have come from. :wink: By we I mean you lot toooooo! :lol: :lol: :P

Image

And his modern day counter part

Image

All the best

Tim

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Last edited by Timbo on Thu May 19, 2011 6:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Cochin Breed Profile
PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 2:03 pm 
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Champion Bird
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I've thoroughly enjoyed reading this profile and the following discussions. I have pekins so am naturally fascinated with it's distant relative. Is it true in the UK they call their pekins, cochins - or don't they have pekins at all? I've always been confused about that point as an Aussie. I thought a cochin was just a myth in Australia, but thanks to this profile I see that they are distinctly different to the smaller pekin.

Can I just ask if this matter can be cleared up once and for all - if it's possible? :biggrin:

Is the pekin an offshoot of the cochin, or are they two distinctly different breeds?

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 Post subject: Re: Cochin Breed Profile
PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 3:06 pm 
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Thanks for the questin Christine,

Yes they are two distinct breeds coming from different parts of China originally.

There was some interchange of breeds in the early years of establishing the Pekin bantam in The U.K and in recreating the large Cochin in Australia.

Apart from the obvious the Cochin is much taller in the leg, has less body tilt and does not have the breast apron covering the feet as in the Pekin.

The male has more rise of cushion than a Pekin, which in good specimens is nearly flat across the back into the tail unlike the Cochin. The female Cochin tends to have a less ball like cushion and tail, with a little more tail showing through the top of the cushion.


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 Post subject: Re: Cochin Breed Profile
PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 6:09 pm 
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Showy Hen
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Just to reinforce what Paul has said here. The Pekin is alive and kicking and making a lot of noise in the UK. They have their own website! let alone thread :biggrin: Have a look here;

http://www.pekinbantams.com/community/index.php
*link missing*

Your massive Island and our tiny one stand alone with our view of the pekin heritage I think. As The USA and mainland Europe regard the Pekin as a Bantam Cochin. This is worth a look see;
http://ardjanscochins.110mb.com/index.p ... me&lang=en
*link missing*

All the best

Tim

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 Post subject: Re: Cochin Breed Profile
PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:23 pm 
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Champion Bird
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Yes, that's right Tim - it was the US I was confusing with the UK's view on pekins. Thanks for clearing that up.

Thank you also Cochinman for the clarification on the two breeds. I'm glad there's room for two rather than putting them in the same class. Cochin batam makes sense on one level I guess, but it doesn't take into consideration that they heralded from different regions originally.

The bantam of any standard breed (ie: Wyandotte) come from breeding smaller stock of the original. But it sounds like the Pekin originated in a different part of the country to the Cochin. Giving respect to the original breeders, is giving each breed their own standard and name.

Funny that different parts of the world view things differently. I wonder what the Chinese make of it all? :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Cochin Breed Profile
PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:58 pm 
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Showy Hen
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Eggs-actly wrote:

Funny that different parts of the world view things differently. I wonder what the Chinese make of it all? :lol:


Dinner for 14 I would imagine? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Just to clarify. Cochin is a southern city in India. The original name of my favourite breed was Shanghai, as that is where they are thought to have originated from, rather Peking. So as you quite rightly say, it could be like saying a Barnevelder (Town Barneveld in Holland) is the same as a Maran ( Town in France) are the same breed just because they are chickens. and they lay brown eggs! :shock:

Back to the Cochin, the theory is. The name Cochin name was attached, because the tea clippers from China, carrying the birds would have to stop off at Cochin in southern India, so therefore would have, via COCHIN on their container crates. Or being unloaded for other non live cargo stamped with the ports name then reloaded on the tea clipper. So when they arrived at Tilbury dock's and the like, they would be referred to as the most obvious name on their container. The die hards tried to make obvious, the breeds root's/Heritage by insisting the name be Cochin-China's. But like an awful lot of things it's left for us lot to debate and debate again??? :? :| :P

Tim

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 Post subject: Re: Cochin Breed Profile
PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:20 pm 
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Champion Bird
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Interesting connection Timbo, with India I had not heard that one before but its another fascinating aspect to the history of our beloved breed.


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 Post subject: Re: Cochin Breed Profile
PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:13 pm 
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Champion Bird
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The mystery depends, what an interesting detail about the name's origins.

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Orpingtons & Araucanas...bantam
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 Post subject: Re: Cochin Breed Profile
PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 5:46 pm 
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Showy Hen
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Hi
Is the current Australian Standard going to be posted?
Or are we waiting for the new book of Standards to be completed!

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 Post subject: Re: Cochin Breed Profile
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 7:23 pm 
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Champion Bird
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I assume that there will be nothing until we are closer to having the standard printed but I am only guessing. I don't think it will be all that much different to the past standard published


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 Post subject: Re: Cochin Breed Profile
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 7:27 pm 
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HMMM intereseting they remind me of the pekins!

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