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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2005 8:54 pm 
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Gallant Game
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Location: Mount Tamborine - Gold Coast hinterland (SE Qld)
A quick question for those who know a bit about chicken genetics and colour dominance.

If I mate a white barnevelder cock to a double laced hen what colours should I get in the chickens - white, double laced, white carrying the double laced gene, or double laced carrying the white gene?? Or would I end up with blue or blue laced chickens??

I am not sure whether the double laced gene is dominant to the white gene.

Thanks


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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2005 9:36 am 
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Gallant Game
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Location: Mount Tamborine - Gold Coast hinterland (SE Qld)
Have been doing a bit of research on barnies and found this site on chicken genetics. There is also an extensive forum for discussons on genetics, breeds and poultry management.

http://www.the-coop.org/wwwboard/discus ... opics.html

According to the postings ...

Double laced barnies come from eb eb (brown or partridge) Pg Pg (pattern gene - dominant gene ) and MI MI (melanotic - black intensifier - dominant gene) In concert with the Pg and other genes Melanotic is responsible for plummage patterns.

Are there any barnevelder breeders out there who can give some advice on breeding barnevelders, pitfalls and things to watch out for??

Thanks


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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2005 8:57 pm 
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Location: Tallangatta, Vic
W. Brown,
I have seen silver barnevelders, but they didn't grab me. There are some Utility strains of Barnevelders in Australia that lay amazingly good dark brown eggs, but they are not well marked birds.

I have been thinking about starting a "Dark egg laying group" in Australia which would cover Marans, barnevelders & Welsummers. At the moment its just a nice thought :) but could blossum in the future.

I would imagine breeding whites and double laced would breed both pure whites and pure double laced, but breeding whites together will only breed white offspring.

Good luck with your barnies, and let us know how your breeding plans go.

Andy.V


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 10:40 pm 
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Location: Wagin, WA
I'm just curious about the white barnies, I've never seen or heard of them in that colour before. Do you have photos, and can you tell me where you got them (the birds, I mean)?Regards, Meredith


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 Post subject: Barnevelder pics
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 10:32 am 
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Gallant Game
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Location: Mount Tamborine - Gold Coast hinterland (SE Qld)
[img][img]http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a77/wbrow9/3939dc13.jpg[/img][/img]

I hope these pics load okay. I purchased a trio of barnies from a breeder a couple months ago.

I want to breed a utility flock - they will need to look like the standard says they should and more importantly lay the dark brown eggs barnies are known for.

The rooster looks really dark on the chest area because most of his chest feathers have triple lacing rather than double lacing.

I am hoping to get two 'show quality' pullets at the end of the year to add to the flock.

[img][img]http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a77/wbrow9/fd2e28f7.jpg[/img][/img]

If the images don't load the link to the pictures is listed below.
http://photobucket.com/albums/a77/wbrow9/

Any constructive criticism or advice on the birds is most welcome!!


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 10:58 am 
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Location: Tallangatta, Vic
W. Brown,
From what I understand,

* egg colour is best developed by line breeding, and keeping your best cockerels hatched from your darkest laying hen. I often hear of people crossing 2 dark egg laying lines, and getting lighter eggs.

* Birds that have the gene for dark egg laying, are somtimes not recognised when they are FAST layers. The best method I have heard is to document the first dozen or so eggs from your pullets, and leg band etc.

* Don't forget egg shape and size! there is a section on this at the back of the Australian Standards.

* I would keep both a Utility strain, and exhibition strain. When you have understood the quirks and runnings of these lines (keeping them searate), then have a little play creating your own strain. Keep good records, photos etc.

* they have a great household name in Australia as a great brown egg layer, so your breeding will be for a worthy cause.

* Don't incubate any eggs that your not happy with. (size, shape, colour etc)

Good luck and Go the Barnies!!
Andy.V

ps nice photos :) They look like a good start!


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 2:51 pm 
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Location: Mount Tamborine - Gold Coast hinterland (SE Qld)
Image


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 8:06 pm 
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Great Eggs :D

Hans L. Schippers from Holland is considered a guru on the breed, and shows this exert from his book: (It's out of his repinted book about the Barnevelder). I had the good fortune to attend a talk and slide show by Hans when he visited Australia.

Andy. V

=============================================

THE BIG, BROWN AND TASTY EGGS.

Text by Dr. Hans L. Schippers - Amstelveen - Holland

Introduction

Because renewed interest in (dark) brown eggs their is a revival of interest
for breeds producing such eggs. For example for breeds as the orginal French
breed the Marans, the Spanish breed Penedesenca and last but bot least the
fine Dutch Barnevelder Fowl. The interest is also there because the appeal
of the utility poultry breeders to fill in the niche markets. Recent
research learned that still the utility Barnevelder is the breed with the
best brown egg-production of approx 180 - 210 eggs, per hen per year. The
Marans and special the Penedesenca has the darkest brown egg-shell colour
but they are in general a little smaller than the Barnevelders' egg. The
herefore mentioned qualities are breed-characateristics and because the
renewed interest for it, it's very important to improve this quality.
Sometimes these characteristics are neglected. On the other hand egg
quality and form are also very important for the brown egg layers!

About the egg

The eggs of each poultry breed will not only exhibit external
characteristics but can also be recognised by other traits. Most
Mediterranean breeds e.g. the Leghorns will produce large white eggs while
almost all Asiatic heavy breeds lay brown eggs of varying shades. This is
thought to have some relation to the amount of fat that laying hens carry.
For example the Barnevelder is renowned for its many, large, dark brown eggs
and the following information is thought necessary to enable the reader to
understand its background and utility aims.

It is very important to breed from brown egg layers with a pedigree
achievement of a minimum of 200 dark brown eggs which weigh between 55 - 65
grams per bird per annum as this is also part of its breed characteristics.
The eggshell must be strong and well shaped, the colour as dark as possible.
Those who breed for exhibition should also select birds for these basic
utility requirements. Few people wish to purchase Barnevelders, Marans or
Penedesenca without their renowned egg laying capacity. At present too many
birds are bred for exhibition purposes only, and the egg production side is
ignored and therefore can be very poor. Egg production is improved by good
selection, more importantly by using as a stock cockerel a bird, which has
been bred from a high producing hen (dam). By continuously breeding in this
manner production will improve with each generation. When selecting eggs for
hatching only the darkest should be included. It is therefore important to
understand where the dark pigmentation originates from.

Egg Colour

Egg colour is hereditary upon which the selected cockerel has the greatest
influence. Cockerels bred from hens, which already produce dark shelled
eggs, will pass on this gene to their progeny, and in this way the shell
colour is improved and maintained. The hybrid crossing of the Rhode Island
Red with the Barnevelder improves the production of dark brown eggs better
than would be expected from the Rhode on its own. If however the Barnevelder
is crossed with a white egg laying strain such as a Leghorn, then the eggs
lose much of their colour and are tinted. Not brown or white.

As well as the conformation of the bird, accurate markings and colour, the
eggs must also be dark drown - the browner the better. The pigmentation to
produce this colour comes from certain elements in the blood. This
pigmentation is put on the shell by glands in the oviduct at the same time
the shell is formed. Only a limited number of colours can be produced in the
oviduct namely:

Oöcyaan, this produced from the waste product of the bile and bilirubin,
dark green in colour resulting in blue to blue green egg shells laid only by
one or two poultry breeds.

Oörhodein or porphyrin, made from blood by products, is very important for
the dark brown shell of the Barnevelder and breeds laying dark brown and
brown-shelled eggs.

Bilihumin and Biliprasin are very dark pigmentations which are sometimes
responsible for darker spots or freckles on brown-shelled eggs.

Further Oöchlorin and Oöxantin are less important and mostly found for
yellow or red tinted eggs.

A mix of these pigments is responsible for the characteristic egg colour for
each breed. Many of the Asiatic poultry breeds produce brownish shelled eggs
while most of the Mediterranean breeds lay white shelled eggs.

Egg Form

Immediately after the shell is formed, osmosis takes place drawing the thin
albumen in the egg, after which some extra pigmentation is added. It is
thought that the longer the shell remains in the uterus the more
pigmentation is added. It's a known fact that the smaller, oblong eggs pass
through the reproductive system faster than the larger rounded eggs. This is
thought to be the reason why the large rounded egg of the Barnevelder,
slower to pass through the oviduct, is darker brown.

To calculate the ideal shape of the Barnevelder egg you divide the width by
the length times 100. The resultant measurement is called the form index.
The ideal 'form index' for a 58 gram egg is 5.7cm long by 4.2cm wide.

As the length of the form index is reduced so the egg becomes longer and
conversely when it increases the egg becomes more rounded. The ideal form
index for the Barnevelder is about 74, and at this figure the shell colour
will be at its genetic best! Eggs of this size are generally thought to have
stronger shells and are easier to pack. However, it is acknowledged that the
better the production, the lighter the shell colour becomes over the period
of lay.

Egg Shell

The eggshell is produced from Calcium Phosphate. The majority of which is
pure Calcium with the remainder made up of Phosphorus. Magnesium and
Manganese along with a little albumen to act as glue in the formation of the
shell. Where the latter is spread irregularly over the shell it may cause a
great number of little, lighter and darker spots to arise. These are the
so-called 'marbled eggs', which are generally thin shelled. The metabolism
of such an egg declines and quickly becomes stale, it also becomes more
quickly dehydrated and, because of this, very rarely hatches. During
prolonged hot periods hens generally eat less and unless this is offset by
providing extra vitamins in their drinking water, the eggshell becomes
thinner. This is also thought to be the reason why thicker shelled eggs are
produced in January and February, as against those produced in July and
August. Here also the duration of an egg's life before incubation takes
place is very important, i.e. eggs stored over a shorter period of time will
tend to hatch better. The egg shell of an egg is not equally thick. It tends
to be thickest at the pointed end, the sides thinner and the rounded end
somewhere between. To be strong enough for handling and normal
transportation the shell thickness should be at least 33/100mm. A hen's egg
shell will vary little during its period of lay. An average shell weighs
approximately 6½ grams, a total of 1300 grams per 200 eggs produced, more
than 40% of the bird's bodyweight. This amount a hen is unable to produce
without added help provided by feeding the correct balance of Calcium and
Phosphorus in her layer's diet. If further Calcium is required than it must
be balanced with extra Phosphorus to have the desired effect. Any increase
will take about four months before an improvement is noticed. Vitamin D is
also required to improve the shell and, it can be argued, shell colour. This
vitamin can be absorbed by the hen naturally via sunlight. Those who live in
countries with very short day lengths or/and little sun, can provide this in
the natural form of Cod Liver Oil.

The eggshell contains thousands of small holes called pores. An average
shell contains approximately 7.500 pores. Most are at the large rounded end
(which covers the air cell). They play a very important role in the
metabolism of the eggs such as exchange of gases and moisture during
incubation and hatching.

Just before the egg is laid, and immediately after the pigmentation has been
added, a final membrane is formed on the outer shell called the cuticle more
commonly referred to as the 'bloom'. There is a danger that some will be
removed when the washing of dirty eggs is carried out. It is even more
important not to use any abrasive material to remove dirt. The membrane is
identified by the clear lustre of the egg. Egg freshness can be determined
by the size of the air cell at the rounded end.
In general the smaller the air cell the fresher the egg. This is true with
the exception of eggs produced in hot humid conditions, causing the air cell
to be even smaller and remain so when kept in such conditions. A larger air
cell is produced in a colder climate although the egg is still fresh. During
incubation the air cell becomes steadily larger.

At the end

From time to time new, dark brown egg layers are presented for utility
breeders. To keep the dark brown colour pay attention to this story and you
can create yourself your future brown egg layers. And still the brown eggs
in Europe bring a little more profit!


© 2004 Hans L. Schippers -Amstelveen - Holland


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 Post subject: White Barnevelders
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 7:49 pm 
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Has anyone got any pictures of white Barnevelders that they could post on the web, I would also like to see some Silver laced and golden. Could there also be some blue and buff ones out there?


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2007 9:51 am 
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See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barnevelder

and
http://www.sv-barnevelder.de/
Website of the German Association of Barnevelder and Bantam Barnevelder Breeders (German language only, images of the different colours)


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2007 10:35 am 
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Mating White to Double Laced will give all coloured chicks,no whites.
What the colour pattern will be like will only be revealed when they feather,it depends on what the white is masking. Good chance though that it will be Double Laced. Mating the F1 will give approx 50% Whites chicks. Barnevelders are Standardized in Double Laced,Silver Laced(this is a single lace),Partridge ,Black & White. Sorry no Buff or Blue.
Interestingly Silver Laced & Whites do not seem to lay dark eggs in Aust.


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2007 11:39 am 
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blackdotte wrote:
Sorry no Buff or Blue.


However, in Germany there are Blues and Blue double-laced ones. Not sure about the Netherlands, their 'birthplace'.

chook-in-eire


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2007 6:02 pm 
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at recent promo day we were asking for opinion on quality of barnies from president of western australian poultry association. his name was tony (sorry don't know surname) anyhow they were double laced pullets.

he said that (at least in wa) alot of the double lacing has been forfeited in the search for the dark eggs, to achieve this people have been breeding DL with the partridge barnies, giving more pepperiness to their markings. also, people haven't been maintaining cb and pb pens? just thought i'd throw that into the discussion in case thats of any use and it may be happening elsewhere too.

there are a couple of places over here that have silver barnies, but that is interesting that there are white ones and other colours........learn something new everyday :)

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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2007 7:28 pm 
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Location: Crossfield, AB, CANADA!
Great eggs w brown!!

Here are a couple of mine. These two hens have quite a speckle to theirs. I lost one of these hens to a fox attack last summer (and my best rooster too!). :(

Image

I was under the understanding that there where no cb and pb lines in the double laced barnies. There might be in the partridge though. It is difficult because my best eggs do come from my worst marked pullets. I really want to develop a decent line of dark egg layers that come close to the standard. I don't think I am ready to sacrifice the dark eggs just for markings yet.

Here's one of my hens:
Image

and her lacing (caught her in the middle of a bath)
Image

I still have a long way to go to get what I want but I am enjoying the journey. Information on this site has been a great help!


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2007 8:23 pm 
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caladenia wrote:
also, people haven't been maintaining cb and pb pens?
[...]
there are a couple of places over here that have silver barnies, but that is interesting that there are white ones and other colours........learn something new everyday :)


That's why I put up the link to Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barnevelder
It lists all the colours that are out there and how they were developed. (I wrote most of the entry and the pics of hens, cock, and chicks are mine too). Mind you, at least one foremost breeder of the double-laced BV (the 'original one') reckons that the large fowl double laced ones are becoming so scarce that it is foolish to promote all these extra colours and that more people should concentrate on the original variety.
The quote from C. S. Th. Van Gink (1930) shows that the double-laced ones were never intended to be double-mated.
Quote:
The appearance of these double-laced females remained fairly well unnoticed by the breeders of the Barnevelders, but we happened to see these birds and suggested, - where the breeders were looking for a suitable colour-type of which both standard-marked males and females could be bred from the same breeding pen, - that this type of marking be given a fair chance, as it had proved in another breed to fulfil these requirements. Since then this colour-type has been adopted in Holland and it will in the future safeguard the breed against otherwise perhaps unnoticed crosses, as no cross can possibly be found that will not upset the adopted colour-markings in some respect.


Here's to the Barnie breeders :mrgreen:

chook-in-eire


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