Backyard Poultry Forum • View topic - Barring? Light and Dark

Backyard Poultry Forum

Chickens, waterfowl & all poultry - home of exhibition & backyard poultry in Australia & New Zealand
Login with a social network:
It is currently Sat Dec 15, 2018 5:48 pm

All times are UTC + 10 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 33 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Barring? Light and Dark
PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 11:50 am 
Offline
Prime Pekin
Prime Pekin
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:46 pm
Posts: 3318
Hi All,

i have been contemplating this topic and trying to find a way to word it so here i go;

The genetic symbol for Barring is B and it is dominant.

Barring in Plymouth Rocks in Australia is in two varieties Light and Dark, these two are bred in contrary to other Cuckoo/barred birds which are continually bred back to black to produce show quality males. Plymouth Rocks are bred barred to barred.

It seems that black birds are not produced from Barred Plymouth Rocks, unless cross with another colour. This means they are homozygous for B so cock (B,B) and hen (B,-) as barring is found on the sex gene in females only have one. my question or thoughts are if so why the colour differentiation in the barred varieties light and dark.

How would you isolate this gene or inhibitor and document it? It is very interesting to me and i think a worthwhile experiment.

In the Plymouth Rock by Les Dowdle the geneomes are given as follow:

Dark Barred EE,MlMl,SS,BB male EE,MlMl,S-,B- female

Light Barred EE,MlML,SS,BB Diluter gene unknown male, EE,MlMl,S-,B- Diluter gene unknown female

In Genetics of Chicken Colours the basics by Sigrid and Dort and David Hancox the genome given is : E/E S/S B/B Co/Co ar/ar

This is where my dilemna starts. how do you prove certin genes are involved, what is the best colour to test mate as B is dominant, and if there is an unknown dituter, what do you think it dilutes silver? or maybe halves/restricts barring or the intensity of the barring?

Just what so far has been brewing in my crazy little mind. Any thoughts or ideas welcome


Cheers


Christian

_________________
Interested in Plymouth Rocks, Breeder of Light Barred Standard


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 12:41 pm 
Offline
Wise One
Wise One

Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2008 9:36 pm
Posts: 2721
Good questions intChooks.

From the little I have read B is a melanin disrupter (both pheomelanin & eumelanin). Because the gene is sex linked, males can be either hetero or homo for it, while females can only be hetero for B. So in effect and from what I understand, males B/B are lighter (more melanin disruption/dilution), while hetero males B/b+ will be darker as will the females.

I don't know much about Barring or birds that are barred, and I think you can get both light and dark in the females too can't you? :hmmm: Ok, my 2 cents worth. Someone who knows what they are talking about will be along shortly :lol: I am interested though to see what the reason is for it in the females other than the hetero bit! Maybe you have to have both cockerel & pullet breeding lines, and maybe the Ml gene is used in increasing the intensity of the black barring in the darks?? My book says that Co & K (slow feathering) help to make the very distinct bars. Possibly other modifiers also.

Cheers :)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 12:41 pm 
Offline
Fiesty Fowl
Fiesty Fowl
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 7:53 pm
Posts: 1138
Location: The Hot & Dry of the Riverina, NSW
Christian, I'm glad you asked as i've been wondering about the barring difference between lights and darks as well. (I dont breed them but have rhodebars so am working with barring and it got me thinking about the genetics).

Didnt PR used to be a double mated breed (like silver laced dottes) until they were separated into the two distinct types? :hmmm: So when did the dilution factor come into play?

It confuses me, too, so maybe now i can find out the answer. :roll:

_________________
Goats Milk Soaps and Crémes.
http://thefarmersgoat.weebly.com/index.html


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 1:06 pm 
Offline
Wise One
Wise One

Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2008 9:36 pm
Posts: 2721
Just to correct, I meant to say the females are hemizygous for sex linked B, not heterozygous because they can only have the one of a pair of genes.

Cheers :)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 1:44 pm 
Offline
Gallant Game
Gallant Game
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2005 6:40 am
Posts: 568
I have done a lot of reading about double mating but, I dont know what it is, or how it is done. I dont want to seem silly though but can someone tell me how it is done please.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 3:58 pm 
Offline
Prime Pekin
Prime Pekin
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:46 pm
Posts: 3318
Hi Mummaroo,

I am not sure either what double mating is? i thought it similar to CB and PB lines, but not sure.


I wanted to add another spanner in the works, there is a slow feathering gene that helps with the barring pattern, K it also has variants and order of dominance as follows Kn>Ks>K>k+, i have had one chick in my time with Ks here is a photo;

I think this one is Ks as i have been told Kn wont feather up at all. I gave this guy away to the produce store, he'll probably end up with some isa's.

Image

Now the benefit of this gene is to crispen up the barring, i didn't have the patience this year or space to experiment with him if i get another i will keep him and see if any benefit in a breeding program.

Cheers

Christian

_________________
Interested in Plymouth Rocks, Breeder of Light Barred Standard


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 4:58 pm 
Offline
Dapper Duck
Dapper Duck
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:45 pm
Posts: 53
[quote="rollyard"]Good questions intChooks.

From the little I have read B is a melanin disrupter (both pheomelanin & eumelanin). Because the gene is sex linked, males can be either hetero or homo for it, while females can only be hetero for B. So in effect and from what I understand, males B/B are lighter (more melanin disruption/dilution), while hetero males B/b+ will be darker as will the females.

quote]

This article agrees with you:

http://www.dutchbantamsocietyamerica.co ... iclel.html


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 5:18 pm 
Offline
Prime Pekin
Prime Pekin
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2005 9:48 am
Posts: 3292
Barred Rocks were bred in the US as two separate lines (dark cockerel breeders & light pullet breeders) until about 1921. This continued in Australia (except WA were they mated barred to blacks UK style) until 1998 when they were recognised as two seperate colour varieties. The Dark Barred genotype contains Extended Black,Silver,Barred & Columbian, the later has been shown to reduce the disruption between pigmented & unpigmented bars. However there is something else in, or removed from the Light barred allowing greater time disruption and thus wider unpigmented barring. No research has been done on this that I can find, the possibilities are that the lights have an unidentified diluter or something that slows the disruption process, or the Darks have an unidentified melaniser or something that speeds the disruption process, or the Lights may just lack the Columbian gene.
David


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 5:22 pm 
Offline
Prime Pekin
Prime Pekin
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:46 pm
Posts: 3318
Hey David,

How would i test the theory they dont have columbian. I know some people trying to create buffs and they keep getting Buff columbian as a large percentage. Should i try making buff from lights?


Christian

_________________
Interested in Plymouth Rocks, Breeder of Light Barred Standard


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 11:28 am 
Offline
Prime Pekin
Prime Pekin
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2005 9:48 am
Posts: 3292
I used some Lights when I made my Buff Rock bantams. The other birds included single comb Buff Wyandottes and RIR bantams, & ISA Browns.
Image
David


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 6:39 pm 
Offline
Prime Pekin
Prime Pekin
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:46 pm
Posts: 3318
Hi David,

Thanks for that, i will endeavour to atempt this one day thanks for the explanation


Cheers


Christian

_________________
Interested in Plymouth Rocks, Breeder of Light Barred Standard


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 8:09 am 
Offline
Prime Pekin
Prime Pekin
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:46 pm
Posts: 3318
:arrow:

I have been asked several questions, that i myself had asked in the past i just found the posts and revived them.

Cheers

Christian

_________________
Interested in Plymouth Rocks, Breeder of Light Barred Standard


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 10:32 am 
Offline
Wise Wyandotte
Wise Wyandotte

Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2009 3:10 pm
Posts: 4579
Location: SE Qld
As an academic persuit, if you wanted to test of they have the Co gene, try backcrossing it into a genetic background that definitely does not have it. Perhaps Brown Leghorn? In the second generation, that is the BC1 you should get half the progeny that are not black (from the E gene). Half of these non black progeny will have Co and half not.

[note I've called them non-black because you'll also have silver & gold segregating and the enhancer gene Ml segregating]


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 10:49 am 
Offline
Showy Hen
Showy Hen
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2007 2:25 am
Posts: 225
Location: NSW
intoChooks wrote:
Hi Mummaroo,

I wanted to add another spanner in the works, there is a slow feathering gene that helps with the barring pattern, K it also has variants and order of dominance as follows Kn>Ks>K>k+

Cheers

Christian


blackdotte wrote:
No research has been done on this that I can find, the possibilities are that the lights have an unidentified diluter or something that slows the disruption process, or the Darks have an unidentified melaniser or something that speeds the disruption process, or the Lights may just lack the Columbian gene.
David


Could it also be that the main difference between the Light and the Dark Barred PR is the K allele they carry. If one of the K alleles acts to slow down the disruption process more so than the others then wouldn't that create wider bars and hence a lighter bird. So the mysterious diluter may not exist and dark barred may just have a K allele which is slightly faster in its disruption of pigment deposition than the K allele of the light barred?

Cheers,

Luke

_________________
Papa, potatoes, poultry, prunes and prism, are all very good words for the lips.
Breeder of Brahma and Wyandotte.
Website: http://www.brahmacochin.org


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 9:36 pm 
Offline
Showy Hen
Showy Hen
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2007 2:25 am
Posts: 225
Location: NSW
:arrow:

_________________
Papa, potatoes, poultry, prunes and prism, are all very good words for the lips.
Breeder of Brahma and Wyandotte.
Website: http://www.brahmacochin.org


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 33 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC + 10 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 13 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
©2004-2014 Backyardpoultry.com. Content rights reserved
freestone