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PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 9:42 am 
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Prime Pekin
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Hi All,
First of all correct me if i am wrong.

I have always had an affection for this pattern when it is done well. I believe indians are way in front of barnies with this patterning. I was just opening it up for discussion could the E allele which patterning is on affect the crispness of the lacing and its distribution.

Currently Indians are made on the eWh allele (wheaton based) and Barnies on eb (brown based) in Australia, i find that nearly all shows i goto there are exhibits of both breeds and indian hens are much better marked than barnies. Nearly all feathers double laced clearly and crisply, so i would like to hypothesize with the general audience, should someone make barnies on eWh?

My next issue is Barnie Rooster breast lacing on males, the current consensus on this site is 20% red on chest of male to breed good pullets? Whereas in the Indians there is almost no lacing at all visibly present on rooster, this is obvioulsy due to the eWh basing of the bird? can breeders of both breeds enlighten me to the troubles in achieving this pattern, and also is it my misconception that indians are ahead in the Pattern?


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Christian

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 6:49 pm 
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Hi all,

this is what i mean

Image

Image

Image

Image

other point i thought about today is it easier for yellow legs on eWh or eb?


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Christian

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 7:00 pm 
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Nothing to do with E-allele. More with popularity and fine tuning.

The dutch barnevelders are better than or equal to our indian game.

Also the males have full black breasts.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 7:05 pm 
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Second part first, easier to get clear yellow (or white) legs on a Wheaten background as Wheaten is a Melanin inhibitor.
From the above you would expect ,as there is less melanin in Wheatens, for them to have poorer lacing. However Indian Game have 'recessive blacks' that UK Barnevelders don't have ,(see Carefoot's paper on melanisers in Indian Game & Barnevelders). Henks post would support that Dutch Barnevelders have more melanisers than those in the UK or ours.
David


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 7:20 pm 
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Prime Pekin
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Hi Henk,


thanks, i was obviously just looking for an easier way.


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Christian

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 8:56 pm 
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Why then do my eb / eWh wyandottes have salmon breast. All the lacing is pushed to the back. Unless they have extra melanisers.

I would think I cannot possibly have lacing on eWh in wyandottes.... :hmmm:

Raf

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 9:02 pm 
intochooks from my own playing around. when i put eb into my wheaten indians and breed them as my wheaten indians where all else becomes equal except that one bird maybe eb and another ewh i find the eb birds are darker with a slight duskiness to the leg.

i feel you would get better lacing by not choosing your rooster on the standards but on the quality of the lacing of the hens. by trying to get a bird that follows the standard you are making sacrifices to the hens lacing.

a good indian cock to breed well laced hens has 2 things about him:

1) he can be very laced as a chicke,n so much so that you may think he is a pullet and...

2) these roosters often have lacing in the thighs and down their throats.

if you try to breed hens that have almost triple lacing then the lacing starts to change to a more partridge look where instead of the outer lace being black it becomes brown.

i feel that the rooster to improve your lacing should come from the best laced hens. even if this means your rooster is not breeding to exhibition standards.....pullet breeding pens.

k

PS Raf the wheatens need something to get them to be able to lay down the black, this something could possibly be Db.

pps had to edit this...so used to coopslave talking about barnies i just naturally thought it was her, apologies intochooks..i have remedied my mistake.


Last edited by ruff on Wed Aug 12, 2009 9:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 9:06 pm 
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Hi Raf,

I reckon you are loosing Co and some melanisers, which push black to the edge of the feather, Davids said that indians have recessive blacks that allow this to occur. :idea: This is why i reckon a cross needs to be done to create crisper barnie lacing. :mrgreen:

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Christian

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 9:10 pm 
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It could possibly be hetero Co.....

I was fairly sure it was lack of Black enhancers.....

Some of my eb/eWh have great lacing, so I take back what I said, eWh will work, as long as there are the right genes in place....

Sorry for the merry go round. :aaargh:

Raf

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 9:12 pm 
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Forgot to add, my males have great lacing too. Not solid brested.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 9:14 pm 
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Hi raf,

why i started this is that people were saying there are no bantam barines around, i reckon with the quality of bantam indians, and even some wheaton OEG someone could have a good crack at creating them. Food for thought :o



Christian

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 7:28 am 
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I haven't had time for a long, thoughtful post, and I won't for awhile. I just thought I would pipe up and say I am finding this interesting. I think I do have wheaten in my barnevelders as it pops up so much in the crosses I play with. I also think that crossing witht he IG for anything but a meat bird would do damage to your barnevelder program. They are sooo different in type you would spend years wading back. Just my thoughts for the moment. Wish I had more time, sorry.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:47 am 
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Hi Coops,

I know their type is at opposite poles, but i think you would be surprised how fast you could get type back. I look at some of the roads ruff takes to get different coloured breed and think s*** where did she get that idea? Remember Henry Ford was told 1000 of times the car just wouldn't work, if he listened we would all be on horse back right now.

other thing i think some of my birds in the picture are melanised e+ as there is alot of black peppering in there lacing backgroung, upon reading further in blackdottes pictures of hen on p38 are very similar to colour type i was getting, this may have come from the welsummers which may have made them eWh/e+

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Christian

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:13 am 
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Are we talking Single or Double Lacing?
Double Lacing on eWh is found on Dark Indian Game, & on eb as in Barnevelders, however I have never seen Single Lacing based on eWh. Single Lace genotype combination is Pg Co no melanisers & eWh causes a futher reduction in melanin, the addition of eb, in an eWh/eb bird does not overcome this. eWh is dominant to eb thus these birds are more likely to have clean breasts due to Autosomal Red distribution.
David


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:22 am 
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Hi David,

Mine were single laced, not pure, barnie x welsummer hen x a NH rooster, i selected only on looks of adult birds which now i know was a mistake and kept no records, do i feel dumb now. I still can get some eggs of these birds i might have a play. i also have some that are wild type partridge hens at my inlaws from the same cross that they use for backyard layers.

Image

Image

I also realise that i answered this thread but actually was talking about this in another thread Images non DL Barnevelder sorry for the confusion.

Cheers

Christian

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