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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 11:40 am 
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Prime Pekin
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Hi All,

I started this post as an educative tool for all, i am still struggling to tell the difference between e+ and eb tell me is i am right here.

e+ has typical wild type racing stripe right to the top of the head also eye liner marks?

eb has racing stripes but not to the head but can have two dots on head which indicates Co?

How am i going?

Cheers

Christian

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 11:48 am 
i am going to wait for kazjaps and blackdotte to answer this....


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 12:50 pm 
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Hi christian

Here is an answer kazjaps gave me for that very question in a thread called "please help tell me what colour I am ... If you can see me." It was posted by nzkiwi2007 in here somewhere so shouldn't be too hard to find.

Quote kazjaps...
Regarding the genetics......
If the striped chick hatched from my millefleur d'uccles, I would say it was e+/e+ wild type, with no Co - Columbian (or at the very least - heterozygous Co/co+, as the down isn't dark enough for Co/Co). But eb - Brown with various modifiers can look similar to e+ wild type, in some cases. Usually to tell e+ wildtype from eb Brown (with modifiers such as Db - Dark Brown, Pg - Pattern, etc), you check the head pattern. Usually e+ wild type (without certain modifiers) have a thick 'arrow-head' stripe on the top/back of the head, plus they have an 'eye-stripe', eg the following chick:


So the first hatched chick looks similar to the above, although the eye-stripe isnt as clear, but they aren't always clear in e+. But sometimes eb chicks from secondary patterned varieties with Pg & Db (or Pg-Ml, or Pg-Ml Co, etc) may have residual striping around the eyes (often a circle around the eye), plus the lighter & wider stripes on the back, but usually not a wide 'arrow-head' stripe on the top/back of head for eb.

nzkiwi2007, were the possible Millefleur (spangle) hens that may have laid the eggs, similar to the pullet photo you posted previously, ie this pullet:


I did breed similar shade of ground colour to the above, from my Millefleur d'Uccles, and these were heterozygous eWh/e+, plus no Co - Columbian. They were segregating a red enhancing gene, plus Db - Dark Brown, plus some Co, in the sisters. When they have Co - Columbian they tend to have a cleaner orange ground colour as adults, and without Co they tend to be more a drab brownish colour in the hens, possibly mossiness/stippling around the saddle/back area. Eg, like the following pullet you were looking at buying (note the darker mossiness/eumelanisation in the saddle area):


*Mine were also heterozygous for eumelanisers - therefore sometimes extra black in the saddle with the hens.

George doesn't seem to have the same problem, but he might be heterozygous for Co - Columbian, plus have other columbian-like restrictors (eumelanin restrictors, eg Db, Mh, Di) - which seems to be common in the Pekins (maybe because solid Buffs were used in developing Millefleur Pekins?). I never had that problem you seem to have with some Millefleur Pekin lines, of lighter gold neck/saddle hackles, to the darker orange/red body colour, with the roosters. My d'Uccles were the same shade of orange/red throughout, except for the wing bow in roosters. There can be a similar lighter gold neck problem with some gold-laced/blue-laced red Wyandotte lines (maybe Di in the combination?). So there is something else floating around in Pekins and Wyandottes, that I haven't noticed in Belgians.

End quote


Hope that might help a little bit! Cheers julie

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 5:41 am 
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Prime Pekin
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Hi All,

This needs to be restarted.

Cheers

Christian

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 8:42 pm 
wow how time flies since this was started or added to.

i had a very mixed breed lot of game chickens hatch today. i don't know exactly who the parents are as i was just letting the hen go through proving her worth. wow did i get a rainbow of chickens

these chickens are e+. i think recessive melanizers have made them this dark where the centre stripe is almost black. hopefully they will live to adult hood so i can see any differences. even these 2 look different to each other:


Image

if i add dominant white to the above chickens i get this:

Image

these two are E or ER but i don't think you can tell the difference visually so i will call them ER. the one on the right has the addition of dominant white, the dark spot gives it away. however this dark spot is light not black so it could be blue or dunn:

Image


both these little fellas are dominant white the one on the left (looking at it from where we sit) is ER which is in the above photo but the one on the right is e+ like the ones at the beginning of this post:

Image


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 8:54 pm 
i just doubled my marans population again with the hatching of a heap of chickens. the marans are wheaten and gold, the hens are a red wheaten colour and the roosters are an attractive black red. here is a chicken:

Image

the above chicken is very different to my indian game who are also wheaten. even in indian game you get variation in colour of the darks from yello to stripey.i have been working on making silver indian game here are a couple of the chickens. i have been trying to work out if it is mahogany i can see in some or it is the cockerels who are split for gold. anyhow these 2 chickens are the most silver of the latest batch of backcross on silver chickens:


Image

Image

Image

the indians have been hatched about 3 days now and really on the go so much much more difficult to photograph.

PS for those who want to be pedantic about the indians...yes some have feather legs as i do not cull yet on leg feather as it is not important even after 7 or 8 years from my first cross to pekin.........


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 9:25 pm 
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those silver indians are gorgeous with their green eyeliner :wink:

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2011 8:03 am 
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fantastic pics Ruff!
It will be interesting to see what those S indians turn out like and if they have colombian restriction in the form of single lacing.

Christian, have you ever test mated your light barred rocks?

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2011 8:26 am 
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there is a hatch down sticky @thecoop if any one is interested:
http://www.the-coop.org/forums/ubbthrea ... 532&page=1

Here are some pics of mine, same 2 chicks, 2 different angles, they are eb, s+ Pg-Ml co I/i+ (on left) and i+/i+ (on right)
ImageImage

ImageImage

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2011 11:45 am 
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What a lovely lot of chick pics!

I have now linked this thread to Gallery photos and most will also have the key words chick down colour as well as link to first page of this thread added to photo details. :)

Here is how to link your photos to a thread: How to Link Gallery Photos to Info Centre posts.

Thanks Ruff for routinely linking your pics! :thumbs:

As the forum membership grows any assistance in keeping the Gallery organised and tied to the Info Centre is much appreciated. :)


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2011 10:08 pm 
this chicken is e+ and S, wildtype and silver:

Image

so when it becomes adult it will be a silver duckwing.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2011 10:37 pm 
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Thank you for posting these pictures. I'm really enjoying each of them as they have been posted.

Just a couple of dumb question:

Does the ER chick always have a spot on the head?

& with regard to the silver wheaten chick above - what does the red tinge mean? Is that always there or does it indicate the presence of other genes?

Thanks.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 6:59 am 
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Chicken07,
that dot on the head is the black on a normal birchen chick down that is leaking through dominant white, dominant white is known as leaky. Below are another couple of E^R hatch downs, one with 2 alleles of lavender and the other without, but no other modifiers or restrictors
ImageImage

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 7:24 am 
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poultch wrote:
Chicken07,
that dot on the head is the black on a normal birchen chick down that is leaking through dominant white, dominant white is known as leaky. Below are another couple of E^R hatch downs, one with 2 alleles of lavender and the other without, but no other modifiers or restrictors

Thanks poulch. So the ER base has nothing to do with the dot - the dot has to do with the leakiness of the dom white? Can this be noticeable on other parts of the body of a chick in the down, or will you only get a dot on the head?

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 7:33 am 
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No prob, you could get black leaking in any part where there would be black (eumelanin) on the chick, so the black parts are turned white (with some leaky bits) and black parts are turned lavender in the case of my chick. Therefore any e allele base that shows black(eumelanin) will have the chance of leaking black when there is dominant white added.. i.e all of them apart from wheaton

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