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PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 8:53 pm 
i felt inspired to ask this seeing we have both kazjaps and blackdotte here and i can get 2 expert opinions in one go.

i have a shamo which i think maybe dunn . to those others reading this who think of dunn as a blue game bird with gold markings i shall explain that in genetic terms dunn is an allel of dominant white and is denoted as ID where D is the alternative to normal dominant white and dominant to dominant white. ID dilutes black to a blue colour but it is not blue but looks very similar.

what i want to know is what would be a good cross to find that that i have ID and not Bl/bl ? i have crossed the bird to a pile (wheaten based) my suspect dunn is E or ER based. i am getting both white, dunn and red (or blue) and black chickens from this cross.

i am also trying to cross this dunn to a yokohama...not any success yet here. the yokohama being I and Bl in unknown dosage.

so please any ideas of how dunn should behave as in opposition to blue.

i don't feel like getting a white leghorn to use in a cross....but if you feel that this is the best way i will try however what should i expect in this cross?

here is the pullet (if you want a better photo i can supply):

Image

and here is the ckl (on left)i put her too:

Image

i most appreciate all answers and comments.

k


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 10:10 pm 
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Prime Pekin
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Hey Ruff,

I would agree with you it does look dunnish, especially compare to photos in Davis book, cant this colour make khaki? it will be very interesting to say the least.

On another note i like the look of shamos, very verciloraptorish, especially amongst the bamboo, i could almost see her as a ninja also, kicking an unsuspecting over amorous cockrels arse.


Christian

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 10:12 pm 
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Old Mother Goose
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K,

DO you think it is ID/id+ or Homozygous?? How does Dun Splash exhibit?

Assuming you think its ID/ID then what about crossing to a known Blue Splash Bl/Bl.

If it was Blue and not Dun, you would get 100% Blue Splash

But if it is Dun, then you will get some Blue and some dark Dun chicks.

If its ID/id, Im a bit stumped... :hmmm:

Raf

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 10:14 pm 
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Old Mother Goose
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Haha! Came to me.

If its Id/id, and you cross to Bl/bl, you would get no splash of either, but some black.

Now...am I right?? :|

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:04 pm 
blackdottes/sigis book has discussions and photos on dunn.

what i cannot understand is how dunn is dominant to I dominant white and when it is IDun/I then it is just dunn, no influence from I dominant white...no different to IDunn/i+

the hen cannot be ID/ID because i would not get black chickens from her.

if i crossed her back to her blue looking son then i suppose i should get black, ID/i+ (blue)or ID/ID dun. but having wheaten in there because the cross was to a wheaten bred pile i would get some wheaten hens influenced by dunn and black reds, dunns (dark blue)and pale dunns (pale blue). maybe i will not get the typical splash of the blue?? if she were blue i suppose i would only get black, blue and splash (with the wheaten bred birds too).

i have one noticable white chicken from her with a lonesome blue feather. the chickens are all very young yet,

sooo complicated.

k


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 2:32 am 
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Ruff, are you sure Dun I^D is dominant to Dominant White I? In "Poultry Breeding & Genetics", Smyth mentioned that with the Zielh & Hollander research, the I/I^D were white. Therefore Smyth thought that I was dominant to I^D Dun. I^S - Smoky is dominant to I - Dominant White though. Well, Ron Okimoto's description of I^S/I is that I^S is incompletely dominant, as these are much paler blue to I^S/I^S.
The Coop - rokimoto description of Smoky

I discussed a similar quandary at the following The-Coop link: The Coop- Dun with Blue.
I did alot of the statistics with trying to work out /test for the eumelanin diluter Bl - Blue or "?" in USA red-shouldered yokos. Maybe something in there for you. Lol, I don't feel like doing the stats again right now – lol might be a brain frying exercise. Besides – new curfew is 1.30 am :wink: .
p.s. – wasn’t Blue/Dun (I^D/i+ Bl/bl+ in one bird) mentioned somewhere online recently? Got a feeling the phenotype was described as different to what Dan mentioned on p2 of the above link .


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 5:44 am 
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The problem in testcrossing is that the combination of one dose Dun and one dose Blue could be a color similar (in paleness) to either of their splash-forms (I^d/I^d or Bl/Bl).

Having found the dun-mutation myself I must say that I have no doubt which is which.
Dun is very variable in color but it is definitely brown tinted to the eye.
Old blue feathers can look brownish too however, be aware of that.

Image

Here you can see the range of het dun on silver base:
Image
Fawn silver duckwing trio and a chocolate lakenvelder pullet

Note the liverlike color:
Image
Image


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:45 am 
don't worry about those stats kaz as i just blurrs my mind. i will look into those links.

thanks for the input henk69 i forgot about your expertise. henk you show that het done ranges incredibly in shaded. does it have splashes (tickings)like blue? if it doesn't could that be one of the clues?

i must get out with the camera on the chickens, incase the hawks get them.

i will be back later.

k


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 5:22 pm 
here is a quote from crawford, "poultry breeding and genetics":

A new allele, found in a Pit-Game cock, has been proposed for the I locus by Ziehl and Hollander (1987). Like dominant white, the effect of this mutation is on eumelanin. The heterozygote modifies black pigment resulting in uniform brownish colouration, hence the name 'dun' and the proposed symbol ID. homozygotes are described as whitish. Although there are some similarities to pinkeye ( pk), the eyes of duns are pigmented. heterozygous dun chicks (ID/i+) resemble blue (Bl/bl+) in the down, but this colour is lost in subsiquent plumages. Allelism was based on the results of dun x dominant white and test cross matings. Although the authors do not indicat the dominance relationships of I and ID, dun was described as whitish or near-white and two I/ID individuals as white, thus I would appear dominant to ID."

to be continued.......


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 8:00 pm 
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ruff wrote:
thanks for the input henk69 i forgot about your expertise. henk you show that het done ranges incredibly in shaded. does it have splashes (tickings)like blue? if it doesn't could that be one of the clues?


Unlike blue and het dom.white dun is a very clean and even color (no lacing also but I don't have Pg (or Ml) in my colors). Don't know about double dose = khaki.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 8:13 pm 
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ruff, from everything Ive been reading, I think youmight have homozygous Dunn. David and Sigi's book doesnt appear to have a 'Splash Dun" picture. Just Het.

Just my guess.

Raf

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 8:21 pm 
raf she cannot be homozygouse as she is producing black chickens.

henk do you think this pullet is even enough in her colour or do you think her lacing is suggestive of blue? i have never seen a blue with this sort of lacing. but then i would not recognize a dunn if i saw one.

i have some more photos coming but i am backing up my files and there are 5 DVDs worth i am having to do before i can delete some photos to download the camera. if i don't me thinks my computer will have a heart attack.

k


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 8:59 pm 
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You can get a homozygous Splash Dun ,we just never found a photo of one in time for publishing.
The problem with testing for I^D/I & Bl/bl+ is that they both operate in the same way. Test mating to an E/E Black gives Black & Dun, and Black & Blue respectively. If the bird was both I^D/I & Bl/bl+ then if mated to an E/E Black you would get Black,Blue,Dun & a paler Khaki.
I would defer to Henk & Sigi's experience but wonder if there is any obvious difference in shade of Dun on silver or gold. If so this could help.
David


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:00 pm 
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Quote:
raf she cannot be homozygouse as she is producing black chickens.


Yep, on a re-read, you have said that a few times and it went straight past me. Sorry.

Raf

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:06 pm 
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blackdotte wrote:
You can get a homozygous Splash Dun ,we just never found a photo of one in time for publishing.
The problem with testing for I^D/I & Bl/bl+ is that they both operate in the same way. Test mating to an E/E Black gives Black & Dun, and Black & Blue respectively. If the bird was both I^D/I & Bl/bl+ then if mated to an E/E Black you would get Black,Blue,Dun & a paler Khaki.
I would defer to Henk & Sigi's experience but wonder if there is any obvious difference in shade of Dun on silver or gold. If so this could help.
David


I agree if you are tesing for Dun, but lets exclude blue first. By testing this female to a blue male, if she is Blue (exprssing a strange colour), then you will get splash blue, which would surely be very different to Dun and leave you either knowing it was a strange expression of blue, or looking for the next test to see what it actually is, knowing it isnt blue.

Raf

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