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 Post subject: tail up or tail down?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:17 pm 
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Golden Magpie
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i have been contemplating tail positions/angles on birds. all breeds stipulate the position of the tail in their standards. many indians and malays seem to have up tails when they should be down.

when i have crossed a shamo (droopy tail)and yokohama (i think supposed to be droopy) to a malay with an up tail all the chickens so far have droopy tails.

i know this is most likely a combination of genes. so i have crossed a yokohama to a jap and my sebright crosses. it won't be long before the chickens will start showing tail position. the jap has an exceptionally highly carried tail and so should the sebrights.

so any ideas on tail positions?? anyone had any experiences with tail angles??

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:59 pm 
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Showy Hen
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Up seems to be dominant over down. It can be difficult to regain down once some up genetics come into the mix. Your Malays should have had some recessive down genetics so that the mix with Shamo's down threw a down tail. The up tail in your 'Malays' is evidence of a foreign cross. Some would say the 'Malay' with a tail higher than horizontal when standing tall is not a true Malay. It would be interesting if the tail on the crossbreds is as low as the Shamo. I'm guessing it might be somewhere in between.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:13 pm 
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wildman, i notice the hens tend to not have such a droopy tails as the roosters, in fact hens are often hard to tell if the yare carrying up or down tail, any ideas?

also do you think the angle of the tail has anything to do with the slope of the back? ie. the bird with the tail up tends to have a horizontal back, even a tilt forward. however do not take this as true, just an observation. a pekin can have an up tail but it is prefered that it has a tilt forward. indians tend to have horizontal tails and tend to stoop with age (age = over 1 year)

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:22 pm 
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Discerning Duck
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Main experience so far is in observation of the phoenix, trying to get the tail above horizontal but nowhere near 90 degs, kinda want it to be 35 deg - I am maybe too fussy. Both my parent birds are fairly high, which is not desirable, the hen seems to be better than the boy. I'd say 80% of the male chicks have it high but some are better than the male parent. The hen chicks seem to be fine so far. It is one of the major things I am watching with breeding them. . . I already culled the boys with too high tails . . .
Oh, and I do think alot of the pictures of Malays I've seen lately carry them too high . . They should have the 3 curves so only droopers in the males over here, but still not looking like they're broken. The hens tails in the Malays carry outward when they stand erect . . hard to describe but I know what I mean.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 5:11 am 
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Proud Rooster
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I don't think there's any 100% pure malaygame's anymore, which is why tail angle is so bad. Even most malay spurs are not curving downwards anymore (this is something in Malays that I would really look for too). I have seen malays with tail so bad that even when crossed with Aseels it's still look bad. However I've learned that once that good droopy tail gene is intruduced into the blood again, and if you can breed a really good number of chicks, you should be able to carefully select something useful.
My Malays are said to be pure when first bought but I do not fully believe, and since I'm not responsible with the mixing of other breeds into any of the old pure malays it really makes me wander WHAT FOREIGN BLOOD is runnig in some of my first Malays. I am puzzled, but with the love of oriental gamefowls and memories of old type malays I think I'm slowly getting there.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 5:47 am 
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Proud Rooster
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One more thing! a true malay tails should always be down and permanant and should be just like any other oriental gamefowls. I have known people who would trained there malay (including champion) to stand perfectly inside a show pen for the judge but looses everything when out in the run.

Not 100% pure Aseel but a good example of oriental gamefowl tails.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 9:49 am 
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I think it is unfair to say that the malay is not pure the old breeders worked very hard to keep this breed alive. The tail on the malay is no diferent to the legs on an indian there are diferences and it is the breeders that have to select the right chicks to rectify the problems in there lines. the bird in the picture's tail is to low there is no evidence of a third angle. i quote the standard "The outline of the neck hackle, back, and tail to form a succession of curves at nearly equal angles thus the tail should come off the body at a very similar angle as the neck. If the tail is below the line of the back it gives the impresion that there is two curves (one for neck and one for back and tail).


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:49 am 
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Golden Magpie
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teddy is showing an aseel there, a perfect example of the extreme of droopy tail.

yes the old breeders tried to keep the malay going which would have been a damn hard job as it is hard enough now keeping rare breeds going that ar not in the top 40 of popularity. you need to breed many birds to keep lines going.

now the malay seems to have improved popularity it is time to improve the malay and using birds like this aseel hen of teddys is one of the best ways.

teddy i suspect the malays not only got a dollop of indian i think they got a dollop of OEG which the indians also got. not that i am against a lot of this as i am a great believer in keeping the chicken genes flowing, however i do prefer to keep the oriental birds with the oriental, the english with the english etc if possible but considering the indian was mixed up all of these then you have lots of spare genes to choose from to improve this breed. on the other hand to keep the malay up to form there is not such a wide source of spare parts :lol: a this bird of yours would be a great source. i hope it is this line that i have in the malay you gave me, thus i can understand why my malay indian cross has a lovely droopy tail. his spurs are coming through now and they look like they are pointing downwards. also my jubilee indian ckl has spurs pointing downwards and carries many malay traits even though he should be pure indian....not sure how he would go with an uncooperative malay hen though.

the angle and the shape of the spur i feel is like the angle of the back where you see many governing genes. i prefer a low pointing down spur on the indians because they ware themselves down thus reducing the need to cut them. also if the spurs on many birds grow too long they curl back up and the rooster cannot sit down if they are not cut.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 4:25 pm 
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Sorry to offend you Roosta, but what I mean by 100% pure is like very original from the begining (firstly imported). There might be just a little of these original malays left somewhere but I really don't know. A huge number in Australia now is more of just a pure crossbreed, especially the newer coloured birds and really odd looking ones. We know or we don't know there's something mixed in there but with years of line breeding and selecting type we get to a point where we just call it pure and ofcouse it is very fair :thumbs: .


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 5:00 pm 
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Showy Hen
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teddy wrote:
One more thing! a true malay tails should always be down and permanant and should be just like any other oriental gamefowls. I have known people who would trained there malay (including champion) to stand perfectly inside a show pen for the judge but looses everything when out in the run.

Not 100% pure Aseel but a good example of oriental gamefowl tails.


Ruff i was refering to the line of the back of this bird not the breeding or future breeding of this bird it does'nt have the destinct 3 curves on 3 equal angles as the standard requires as for a true malay having a tail below the line of the back i have'nt seen any old pics or paintings etc that depict this and the standard does'nt state the tail should be down as has been stated. the drooping of the tail refers to the feathers not the angle of the tail.

Ruff, Teddy do you see any problems with this cross now and in the future if so what do you think they might be??


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 5:31 pm 
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Showy Hen
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Teddy i am not offended just a malay game fanatic who wants his breed looked after a bit more as for how pure any bird is if they were bought in and line bred they would probley be breed to extinction without crossing to new lines but that goes with all breeds. if they breed true to type and standard arnt they pure?


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 5:54 pm 
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Golden Magpie
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i am aware of the 3 curves and in the standards they all curve down. unfortunatly the up tail does not really form the curve. the roach back forms the curve of the back. but these are all just part of the bird. it is collecting up all these scattered bits and putting them back into the bird. the malay is the only breed where roach back is acceptable.

sorry but all i know is the theory. i apply my other knowledge to what is in the standards and i never say never (or when i do i am proven blaringly wrong). to me what is in the standards is it. the standards should not be changed to suit the tends or the too hard. if i have to seek something from a different breed then i shall...they all just chooks, no offence meant to be given here though please. :thumbs:

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 6:45 pm 
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Ruff i'm not saying the tail should be up i'm talking about the angle at witch it should come away from the body ie above the line of the back and below horizontal leaving the tail feathers to flow through and point at the ground not the tail itself.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 7:48 pm 
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Golden Magpie
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i was looking at the tail angle as a sort of ratcheting thing. if you start with a really droopy tail to cross to the up tail perhaps you will get it somwhere in between? :shock: i know things never are that simple. can we imagine ratcheting the tail down and then this affects the other cogs that give the back a slope? sort of a balance thing?

the curve in the tail will most likely be in something later when i (other people can too)have formulated some ideas on that, like whether it is the shorter feathering or /and less that give it a curve or what? i think that it will complicate things too much talking about tail shape of the malay. same with the roach back...what is that? let's save it for a later discussion when another post can look at it totally, same with the spur angle. they are all very interesting things and deserve discussions of their own.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 8:11 pm 
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Hi All,

I dont breed Malay, but this is a very interesting topic and i would like to add some perspective, I think the tail angle on teddy's bird is given by leg placement on the pelvis, if you look at the frame of the bird the leg and also the angle of the body, it is this that allows the tail to point downwards, also there is the parsons nose which would also have to point downwards(or at a massive obtuse angle ie greater than 90 degrees to the back) to achieve this tail. It is the mechanics of the body and legs and parsons nose that will allow for a droopy tail or a downwards facing tail.

I think to truly measure these things a dressed bird will provide many answers, length of shank could also add to the tails downward effect. Just some thought.

Carefoot discusses in Creative Poultry Breeding many physiological placements of wing, leg, body e.g. that lead to the overall apearance and type of the fowl.

I must say, it is great to have devoted people looking to improve a rare breed, one that is also receptive to criticism for being a game fowl. I hope this discussion leads to friendships which develop and foster this regal fowl.

Cheers

Christian

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