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 Post subject: Re: Gallus giganteus
PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 5:59 pm 
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Showy Hen
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Hi ruff, RyaRod and hensbyshenhouse,

OK, have finished reading "The origin evolution history and distrubution of domestic fowl part 3 the Gallus species by W.J. Plant (1986)".

On Malay bone marrow, it strikes me that W.J. Plant does distance himself a little from the theory.

Quote:
Unfortunately I do not have the same supportive evidence on the bone structure of the "runner", the
Malay, so that at this point of time we must take Finsterbusch's word for it. I have no reasons myself to
disbelieve him.


One thing I find interesting is the idea that the feather footed Asian breeds may have their own ancestor species as well.

Quote:
I would suggest that the Asiatics (Cochin, Brahma, Langshan) be considered as a separate species and I would also suggest for want of a better name they be called Gallus pluma cruris referring to "feather of the leg, shank or shin"


My overall impression from W.J. Plant's description of fowls in China is that there are a collection of traits (possibly including bone marrow) in the local chicken populations. Some think that the mix of traits in village chickens are remnants of extinct "pure' varieties or species. I am inclined to think that such varieties only exist when people assemble these traits and select for them consciously or unconsciously.

Cheers


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 Post subject: Re: Gallus giganteus
PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 6:17 pm 
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Showy Hen
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hensbyshenhouse wrote:
without the fact there is a wild population of malay game in existence today is not an excuse to say they are a result of human domestication and breeding.


I just find it unlikely that they could evolve in the wild even without predation. The reduced fertility associated with the Rosecomb gene would have made it hard for Rosecombed males to produce offspring when in competition with other comb types. Natural selection does not like infertility.

Oak


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 Post subject: Re: Gallus giganteus
PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 6:28 pm 
rose comb although having fertility problems could very well have another trait that allowed it to survive. an example of a gene that is lethal in the double dose, not good in the single dose is sicle cell anemia in humans. the good thing about this gene is that in a single dose oit gives these people afflicted with a single dose a greater resistance to malaria. so you can never say never. not only that the rose comb is possibly a variation of a wild type comb where in it's natural host has no problems.

there are too many unknowns to say something is not possible. the most extraordinary things are possible. when I was little they were transplanting baboon hearts into humans. everyone said it was not possible. Lamark's theories on evolution were regarded as myth now epigenetics is the genetics of the future, too bad Darwin got all the credit and is still getting the credit.


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 Post subject: Re: Gallus giganteus
PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 10:15 pm 
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Dapper Duck
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Hi Oak,
W.J.Plant states at the end of the section in describing the differences between bankiva and malay types

Quote:
I have endeavoured however to put together a cross section of material available which hopefully will give the reader an insight into the Bankivoid and Malay species and I have no doubt should be considered as separate species. I would be pleased to hear from any reader who can add further to this material.


in my opinion he has no doubts that malay have evolved from a seperate species than the red jungle fowl. he does not disbelieve Finterbusch who points this out as an obvious differential between bankiva and malay birds.

there is an interesting article on the movement of the local species of gallus from the islands of Comoros (near Madagascar) by the local and visiting Austronesian people.

http://www.araucana.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=249&start=20%E2%80%8E


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 Post subject: Re: Gallus giganteus
PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 6:28 am 
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Gallant Game
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If you could find literature involving the history on Persian Malanoid breeds you be able to discover the next chapter, Malanoid breeds/species in Persia had no other infusion for centuries, including other countries like Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, India etc; check all their prehistoric featured Malanoid breeds, if still in doubt breed some true Malay’s for yourselves and observe them before making any decisions, you will notice their characteristics and behavior differs from other breeds.

Gallus Giganteus malanoid species.
Image


English Malay breed.
Image

_________________
Image


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 Post subject: Re: Gallus giganteus
PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 12:55 pm 
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Wise Wyandotte
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It really depends on your concept of species. Some taxonomists are lumpers and others are splitters.

I personally prefer a concept associated with reproductive isolation. Basically this means that a species is reproductively isolated from other species and has been isolated for long enough for distinctive characteristics to become established. The isolation might be genetic (ie hybrids are sterile or weak), physical (mating is impossible) or geographic (either side of an ocean for example).

In domestication enormous variation can be selected within any one species, so it is difficult to infer ancestral species origin for many domestic species.


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 Post subject: Re: Gallus giganteus
PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 3:31 pm 
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Showy Hen
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Hi ruff, hensbyshenhouse, chickenPox and andrewschooks,

hensbyshenhouse wrote:
in my opinion he has no doubts that malay have evolved from a seperate species than the red jungle fowl. he does not disbelieve Finterbusch who points this out as an obvious differential between bankiva and malay birds.


I agree, I just think he was stating that while he agrees with Finsterbusch on marrow, he was not in a position to confirm it. Not many people have cut open the thighbones of Malays and Bankivas for comparison. I haven't, so I must accept Finsterbusch's observations for now.

Thanks for the link. There certainly is a lot of info to take in there. The Comoros Isles are a little far from the natural range of the other Gallus species for my liking. The mostly Indonesian and possibly African ancestry of some game and meat breeds in Madagascar is an interesting discovery, but I don't think it helps the case for Gallus giganteus much.

Cheers


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 Post subject: Re: Gallus giganteus
PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 8:03 pm 
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Dapper Duck
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[quoteIf you could find literature involving the history on Persian Malanoid breeds you be able to discover the next chapter, Malanoid breeds/species in Persia had no other infusion for centuries, including other countries like Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, India etc; check all their prehistoric featured Malanoid breeds, if still in doubt breed some true Malay’s for yourselves and observe them before making any decisions, you will notice their characteristics and behavior differs from other breeds][/quote]
Chickenpox have you any literature on persian malanoid breeds, for all i have found in the earliest persian artifacts were birds of bankiva type. also asil has several different varieties, there is not just one type. each type looks as if there is a certain percentage of bankiva/malanoid cross. the small variety has less malay blood and the larger type more malay blood.
watching the malay i have in my backyard it is obvious they are not as flighty when fighting(as they dont get as high in the air as the other breeds) they use their size and stamina to win the fight.


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 Post subject: Re: Gallus giganteus
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 11:30 pm 
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Gallant Game
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As you know Persia is now Iran, for any history on Persians Malanoid breeds you need to join other forums, build a relationship with members from Iran and they tell you directly..

Bankiva and other Red-Junglefowl where mixed with Persian breeds after Persia was defeated, so too did the term Aseel .. As you probably already know Aseel means “Pure” also “Purity as in being a thoroughbred” ….The term Aseel was used during fowl trade mostly with neighbouring countries, Aseel was used to describe the purity within strains because most game-fowl were becoming mixed with Jungle fowl.

It’s not advisable for me to hand three different forum links here with heavy cockfighting literature, unfortunately the last time I put one of these links, it was taken down on two attempts by a retired Mod.
I can pass these forum links if you email me here ….. cichlids10@yahoo.com.au


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 Post subject: Re: Gallus giganteus
PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 9:09 pm 
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Dapper Duck
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Chickenpox, I have seen your name on some of those asil forums. something I have thought about, with seeing some of the crosses that have turned up in my hen house, what birds do you cross to get a malay? I have sent crosses to auctions and when people ask me what they are crossed with I often ask what do you think? the answers only make me think more that malay are an original stand alone species, such as red jungle fowl.
I also believe asil was more a reference to the birds being 'pure fighters'. coming down from lines of birds of various crosses that were proven in the pit for continuous generations. the variation in types of asil proves they are not of one species.
with the migration of the Austronesians and musselman races of people from asia west across the indian ocean to the comoros, Madagascar and Africa and east to Indonesia PNG and Australia has made the migration of the land dwelling malay chicken possible. these people navigated the coasts of Africa, Arabia and india long before Europeans even sailed into the indian ocean.
what birds would you cross to get a malay?


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 Post subject: Re: Gallus giganteus
PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 1:02 pm 
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Gallant Game
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Clarification:

Breeds: is term used when humans create a strain by selective breeding.. Once their goal is achieved with all offspring’s resembling their parents a chosen name can be given to their desired breed..( because of the interference from human it does not make the breed a species ).

Species: are wild strains established naturally in their natural habitats, acclimatized by evolution changes.

I put this bird as being a Gallus Giganteus malanoid species is to give an example of what some malanoid looked like as a prehistoric breed waiting for evidence to be discovered so breeds can be scientifically recognized and given their species name under the Genus Gallus Giganteus.

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Gallus giganteus
PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 1:09 pm 
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Gallant Game
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hensbyshenhouse wrote:
what birds would you cross to get a malay?

Inquisitive question. :-?

I see the Malay breed being on top of the chain from most breeds…Taking a rough estimate possibly 80% of all other soft and hard feather breeds carry a degree of Malay blood, from layers to all the current meat breeds, Malay beats the use of all other jungle fowl by far..
Were would anyone start from to re-creating the Malay breed if they became extinct.. I know if I had the opportunity to use overseas breeds, without a doubt I would use wild Saipans and crossed those with a Kulang Aseel or an Iranian Lari…. if a Saipan jungle fowl from the wild is used and crossed with a true Lari strain I think the result would be close to being true Malay..

Using the current Australian breeds it be very limited, large Australian game carries lots of Malay genes, I would cross a male with an Indian game hen, I would use Indian for their facial genes and yellow legs.. I imagine the hardest to achieve would be their strawberry comb, slant eyes and their big cheekbone…When working with any of the Malanoids the golden rule is to always cull/correct for their head and facial genes first.

Edited to correct my spelling from “Lary” to “Lari ”


Last edited by chickenPox on Sat May 11, 2013 10:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Gallus giganteus
PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 3:32 am 
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Gallant Game
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The following website lists known (or scientifically proposed) prehistoric Gallus species:
http://www.gallospedragliofarm.com/prehistoricspecies.html
Quote:
Gallus aesculapii (Late Miocene/Early Pliocene of Greece) - possibly belongs into Pavo
Gallus moldovicus (Late Pliocene of Moldavia) - sometimes misspelt moldavicus
Gallus beremendensis (Late Pliocene/Early Pleistocene of E Europe)
Gallus karabachensis (Early Pleistocene of Nagorno-Karabakh)
Gallus tamanensis (Early Pleistocene? of Taman Peninsula)
Gallus kudarensis (Early/Middle Pleistocene of Kudaro, South Ossetia)
Gallus europaeus (Middle Pleistocene of Italy)
Gallus sp. (Middle/Late Pleistocene of Trinka Cave, Moldavia)
Gallus imereticus (Late Pleistocene of Gvardjilas-Klde, Imeretia)
Gallus meschtscheriensis (Late Pleistocene of Soungir, Russia)
Gallus georgicus (Late Pleistocene - Early Holocene of Georgia)
Gallus sp. (Late Pleistocene of Krivtcha Cave, Ukraine)
Gallus sp. (Early Holocene of Dnieper region)


This is some of the research that the above list is based on:
* Gallus europaeus
A new Jungle-fowl from the Pleistocene of Europe
C.J.O. Harrison
Journal of Archaeological Science. Volume 5, Issue 4, December 1978, Pages 373–376
abstract

------------------------------
The following paper has a good review of the research that has gone into origins & early dispersal of domestic chickens:

Review of the oldest evidence of domestic fowl Gallus gallus f. domestica from the Czech Republic in its European context.
René KYSELÝ
Actazoologicacracoviensia,53A(1-2):9-34,Kraków,26July, 2010
Full paper

--------------------------------
And for those who want to read the W. Plant essays, they are available at Dr Corti's website:
http://www.summagallicana.it/chatteringongallus/


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 Post subject: Re: Gallus giganteus
PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 7:12 pm 
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Proud Rooster
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http://www2.nrm.se/ve/birds/sape/sapenews10.html.en
It says Gallus tamanensis 'was a very large form' and Gallus georgicus was a middle sized bird. Maybe tamanensis evolved into georgicus (lived late stone age and into historic times) and was domesticated then crossed to the Asian species and became the ancestor to [i]'Gallus giganteus/malayoids)
and if you look on maps Georgia isn't to far from (250odd km at closest) to Iran.


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 Post subject: Re: Gallus giganteus
PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 9:34 pm 
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Gallant Game
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KazJaps wrote:
The following website lists known (or scientifically proposed) prehistoric Gallus species:
http://www.gallospedragliofarm.com/prehistoricspecies.html
Quote:
Gallus aesculapii (Late Miocene/Early Pliocene of Greece) - possibly belongs into Pavo
Gallus moldovicus (Late Pliocene of Moldavia) - sometimes misspelt moldavicus
Gallus beremendensis (Late Pliocene/Early Pleistocene of E Europe)
Gallus karabachensis (Early Pleistocene of Nagorno-Karabakh)
Gallus tamanensis (Early Pleistocene? of Taman Peninsula)
Gallus kudarensis (Early/Middle Pleistocene of Kudaro, South Ossetia)
Gallus europaeus (Middle Pleistocene of Italy)
Gallus sp. (Middle/Late Pleistocene of Trinka Cave, Moldavia)
Gallus imereticus (Late Pleistocene of Gvardjilas-Klde, Imeretia)
Gallus meschtscheriensis (Late Pleistocene of Soungir, Russia)
Gallus georgicus (Late Pleistocene - Early Holocene of Georgia)
Gallus sp. (Late Pleistocene of Krivtcha Cave, Ukraine)
Gallus sp. (Early Holocene of Dnieper region)


This is some of the research that the above list is based on:
* Gallus europaeus
A new Jungle-fowl from the Pleistocene of Europe
C.J.O. Harrison
Journal of Archaeological Science. Volume 5, Issue 4, December 1978, Pages 373–376
abstract

Since this topic is about Gallus Giganteus.

I, find your above link is almost off topic because the purpose of that link’s literature is to explain the history involving the (pheasants family group) used in cockfighting and how these popular breeds like the Spanish game, American game, Oxfords, and O’E’G’s varieties became as we know them today.

At no point that web site mentions breeds or any ancestry fowl breeds from African, Persia, Afghanistan, Iran… Nor at any point it mentions anything to do with the family Gallus Giganteus.

It will be bias to compare that sites literature with this thread.


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