Backyard Poultry Forum • View topic - Recreating a breed

Backyard Poultry Forum

Chickens, waterfowl & all poultry - home of exhibition & backyard poultry in Australia & New Zealand
Login with a social network:
It is currently Thu Oct 29, 2020 7:07 am

All times are UTC + 10 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 20 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Recreating a breed
PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 1:01 pm 
Offline
Champion Bird
Champion Bird
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 03, 2012 3:15 pm
Posts: 968
Location: New England
Mods Note

General discussion on recreating a breed, split from

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=8026605


byhookorchook

I know what you saying about horn comb breeds.Let's not forget there was a breeders trying to make a new Australian breed of horn comb breed in WA.The funny thing was it looked like a Crevecoeur.And they tried to get it in the AS2.I can't think of it's name but people on here will know the breeder I'm talking about as they still sell it in WA as a pure breed and it 's no in the AS2..This I beleave is what's happen to the pure breeds of the horn type in Australia.They were crossed to make something new....

_________________
Breeder of Rhode Island Reds and Rouen Ducks


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 2:39 pm 
Offline
Junior Champion Bird
Junior Champion Bird
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 7:02 pm
Posts: 619
Brahma have managed to get into the last 2 standards books. They were considered gone in Australia. It is not new to the poultry world, for people to recreate a new breed, and standardise it. It happens here in Australia, and overseas all the time. It's not new to the world of animal breeding in general. I like to quote the Australian Terrier, Silkie Terrier, Australian Cattle Dog, and more recently the Labradoodle (which have their own stud book in the US of A)

All these breeds came about by human intervention, deliberate and sometimes unintentional, and we continue to make changes. That's what humans do. We bring out new varieties of plants every year, some of which look the same as old varieties, but are for some reason an improvement. How boring would life be if humans had never participated in such interests?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 6:58 pm 
Offline
Champion Bird
Champion Bird
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 03, 2012 3:15 pm
Posts: 968
Location: New England
Quote:
Brahma have managed to get into the last 2 standards books. They were considered gone in Australia. It is not new to the poultry world, for people to recreate a new breed, and standardise it. It happens here in Australia, and overseas all the time. It's not new to the world of animal breeding in general. I like to quote the Australian Terrier, Silkie Terrier, Australian Cattle Dog, and more recently the Labradoodle (which have their own stud book in the US of A)

All these breeds came about by human intervention, deliberate and sometimes unintentional, and we continue to make changes. That's what humans do. We bring out new varieties of plants every year, some of which look the same as old varieties, but are for some reason an improvement. How boring would life be if humans had never participated in such interests?



Yes Janniwan ,but this thing didn,t breed true so it has no place in what your are saying.

_________________
Breeder of Rhode Island Reds and Rouen Ducks


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Recreating a breed
PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 7:22 pm 
Offline
Great Game
Great Game

Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 11:57 am
Posts: 1267
Location: Hamilton Vic
Please continue general discussions on breed recreation and stability in this thread.

NEP, I think the breed that you are referring to is the Godberg and I think that the originator of this breed wanted them to be quite variable. But I really don't know a lot about them.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Recreating a breed
PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 7:37 pm 
Offline
Champion Bird
Champion Bird
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 03, 2012 3:15 pm
Posts: 968
Location: New England
blackleghorn yes your are on the right track , but I didn't what to post the breeders given name as it could make problems on the forum.

_________________
Breeder of Rhode Island Reds and Rouen Ducks


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Recreating a breed
PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 7:42 pm 
Offline
Great Game
Great Game

Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 11:57 am
Posts: 1267
Location: Hamilton Vic
This is not about breeders but about the process of creating or recreating a breed. There have been other posts on this and if I get the chance I will posts links to them.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Recreating a breed
PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 9:18 pm 
Offline
Junior Champion Bird
Junior Champion Bird
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 7:02 pm
Posts: 619
There have been other threads on this topic. They always tend to attract strong opinions from many sides.
I, personally, enjoy seeing the endeavours of others in their attempts to re create breeds that we have been unable to bring in to Australia, and also in the creation of new breeds.
The English are leading the way in creating breeds of interest to backyard breeders. They are often commercial breeders, with the forsight to see that people embrace change, and enjoy owning "designer" animals. I'm not talking about cross bred (or first cross) animals. I would like to see more people taking up this challenge in Australia, other than just the introduction of new colours into a breed.
I often see the argument that we already have enough breeds that need work to keep them up to the standard, but so many of these breeds are for fanciers and for showing. The Backyard void has been taken up by the commercial layers and in many cases cross breds and mixed breeds, where there should have been a whole range of pretty and practical birds available for them.

Rules are not set in concrete. There would never have been the need for an upgraded standards book, if there was no desire for new breeds, new colours, and changes to the "rules" of what makes a particular breed, but that's asking for a can of worms to be opened up too.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Recreating a breed
PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 8:24 am 
Offline
Champion Bird
Champion Bird
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 03, 2012 3:15 pm
Posts: 968
Location: New England
Quote:
Brahma have managed to get into the last 2 standards books. They were considered gone in Australia. It is not new to the poultry world, for people to recreate a new breed, and standardise it. It happens here in Australia, and overseas all the time. It's not new to the world of animal breeding in general. I like to quote the Australian Terrier, Silkie Terrier, Australian Cattle Dog, and more recently the Labradoodle (which have their own stud book in the US of A)

All these breeds came about by human intervention, deliberate and sometimes unintentional, and we continue to make changes. That's what humans do. We bring out new varieties of plants every year, some of which look the same as old varieties, but are for some reason an improvement. How boring would life be if humans had never participated in such interests?


Janniwan,,,,I come from a long line of dog show breeders and dog judges in Australia..

Quote:
I like to quote the Australian Terrier, Silkie Terrier, Australian Cattle Dog, and more recently the Labradoodle (which have their own stud book in the US of A)


What your point?? Labradoodle like bullarabs are not classed as a breed.So the name given to these Mongrel is wrong.

To make a new breed in Australia it's a lot harder then just mating something.

1)paper work like did you start with pure breeds. so you will need the name of the breeders.
2)you need to prove that it breeds ture ,,this can take 5 to 20 years..5 years if it is just a colour with in a breed.
3)you will need to show the how sits on the AS2 panel, not people on forums for brown points as it doesn't help.

_________________
Breeder of Rhode Island Reds and Rouen Ducks


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Recreating a breed
PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 10:24 am 
Offline
Wise Wyandotte
Wise Wyandotte

Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2009 3:10 pm
Posts: 4578
Location: SE Qld
Many if not all breeds are derived from crossing and or selection. The only difference here is that it is being conducted in modern times. I dont think it is necessarily any one elses business if someone decides to call a new line a breed. Time will ultimately tell if that new breed survives or dissapears like so many others.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Recreating a breed
PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 10:55 am 
Offline
Great Game
Great Game

Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 11:57 am
Posts: 1267
Location: Hamilton Vic
The concept of a breed has changed a lot over the years, most original breeds were based on local or regional landraces which were then selected for some degree of uniformity, but even this varied (some breeds allowed significant variation in colour, type etc - others less). These breeds were then continued as separate populations with more or less outcrossing depending on the "rules" of the breeders/breed society. Outcrosses were often used to bring in a new attribute and the rest of the background backcrossed away. In countries like Australia and New Zealand a whole range of animal breeds have been graded up through the importation of semen and in some cases some of the traits from the maternal breed have bene retained such as black or polled limousin cattle (that may offend a traditional French breeders sensibilties). In other cases new composite populations have been formed by selecting individuals with desired attributes across a number of breeds and in some cases these composites have been called a new breed. In other cases remnant animals have been collected and mated with new sources to 'recreate' or 'save' a breed that was on its last legs and in some cases restore some of the original attributes of the breed that may have been lost through inbreeding or drift due to small population sizes.

So to look at some of the examples referred to in this thread - nothing at all wrong with Labradoodles becoming known as a breed in their own right, similarly recreating Brahmas from what is available, or bringing a new colour into a breed where it did not exist before. Of course to some people these methods go against their view of breeding and conservation and that is a perfectly valid view too.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Recreating a breed
PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 11:15 am 
Offline
Gallant Game
Gallant Game

Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2010 8:28 am
Posts: 554
some perspective ..

http://sppa.webs.com/


Last edited by Cackles on Thu Oct 17, 2013 11:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
url tag for external link.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Recreating a breed
PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 11:53 am 
Offline
Champion Bird
Champion Bird
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 03, 2012 3:15 pm
Posts: 968
Location: New England
Quote:
andrewschooks

I dont think it is necessarily any one elses business if someone decides to call a new line a breed


Eg If you pay money to be part of a kennel club , you have a say in if a new breed has a name or not.

If you pay money to be part of a poultry club , you have a say.(Well it's like that with all the poultry club I'm with)

For any new breed of fowl I would like to see the paper work and like to see if it breeds true..That's it.. :thumbs:

_________________
Breeder of Rhode Island Reds and Rouen Ducks


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Recreating a breed
PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 1:09 pm 
Offline
Wyandotte Warrior
Wyandotte Warrior
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 11, 2007 12:40 pm
Posts: 3935
andrewschooks wrote:
I dont think it is necessarily any one elses business if someone decides to call a new line a breed. Time will ultimately tell if that new breed survives or dissapears like so many others.


However if that someone then begins to sell their "new breed" without spending the required number of breeding seasons to ensure that the birds breed true it then becomes everyone's business! That's why the Australian Standards Committee required indisputable evidence before considering a new breed.

My home State has a "colourful" poultry breeder who also happens to have a radio program and is now promoting his own new breed , the "Huon Blue". No one I know has seen any evidence of how this "breed" was established or any guarantee of breeding true, yet this breeder is heavily promoting this new breed as the best bird you could possibly have for your backyard!

_________________
denisL


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Recreating a breed
PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 5:25 pm 
Offline
Junior Champion Bird
Junior Champion Bird
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 7:02 pm
Posts: 619
DenisL wrote:
andrewschooks wrote:
I dont think it is necessarily any one elses business if someone decides to call a new line a breed. Time will ultimately tell if that new breed survives or dissapears like so many others.


However if that someone then begins to sell their "new breed" without spending the required number of breeding seasons to ensure that the birds breed true it then becomes everyone's business! That's why the Australian Standards Committee required indisputable evidence before considering a new breed.

My home State has a "colourful" poultry breeder who also happens to have a radio program and is now promoting his own new breed , the "Huon Blue". No one I know has seen any evidence of how this "breed" was established or any guarantee of breeding true, yet this breeder is heavily promoting this new breed as the best bird you could possibly have for your backyard!


Well it doesn't become everyones business, but it does the breeder's name no good to sell non standardised birds. A new breed should have generations of dedicated work put into it. It should also serve a purpose or find a niche in the market, even if it just be a "pretty" breed developed for a conossseur market, like the Sultan originally was.

Standards and other bench marks have been created by us, just as the breeds have been created by us.
Rules are made to be broken, reformed, improved, discarded, as time goes on. We (you) are breeding birds now for whole new generations of poultry growers, who's poultry and standards in 70 years time may look considerably different to what they are today.

For one thing there will eventually be an influx of new breeds from overseas. I believe that this is inevitable. Those breeds and what is done with them may not necessarily be under the control of people who pay membership to a poultry club, be that good or bad.

Don't get me wrong here. I am a member of a couple of poultry clubs, and I am very involved in the Victorian Iris Society as a hybridiser, grower and exhibiter. I can see the benefit of such groups, but still the best hybridiser of irises in Victoria, with world acclaim for his work, does not submit his work to show judges. He is his own judge and his market tells him he has made the right choices.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Recreating a breed
PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 8:48 pm 
Offline
Showy Hen
Showy Hen
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:22 pm
Posts: 118
DenisL wrote:
andrewschooks wrote:
I dont think it is necessarily any one elses business if someone decides to call a new line a breed. Time will ultimately tell if that new breed survives or dissapears like so many others.


However if that someone then begins to sell their "new breed" without spending the required number of breeding seasons to ensure that the birds breed true it then becomes everyone's business! That's why the Australian Standards Committee required indisputable evidence before considering a new breed.

My home State has a "colourful" poultry breeder who also happens to have a radio program and is now promoting his own new breed , the "Huon Blue". No one I know has seen any evidence of how this "breed" was established or any guarantee of breeding true, yet this breeder is heavily promoting this new breed as the best bird you could possibly have for your backyard!


And he is trying to sell them for $95 each at 10 weeks old.

Good luck to him.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 20 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC + 10 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 35 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
©2004-2014 Backyardpoultry.com. Content rights reserved
freestone