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 Post subject: Barnevelders
PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2015 10:06 pm 
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Old Mother Goose
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In the absence of an Australian Barnevelder breed club, I thought I'd start a thread that could be used as a general resource for those of us interested or experienced in breeding them.
We could share pics, provide links to useful resources and ask questions
Perhaps share some stock.

Does the idea of such a thread have appeal? If so I'll start with some pics of my birds on the weekend.


Last edited by sue55 on Fri Jun 26, 2015 3:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Barnevelders
PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2015 10:17 pm 
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Good idea Sue
I will add a link to the Breed Profile

Looking forward to pics too

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 Post subject: Re: Barnevelders
PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2015 9:10 am 
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Good idea Sue , i see the occasional one or two around at shows , they are a beautiful breed , looking forward to seeing some photos :-D


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 Post subject: Re: Barnevelders
PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2015 9:44 am 
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A Australian Barnevelder breed club, would be a hard thing to do as I under stand now there is two different groups of Barnevelder breeders.. One is a group that breeds to the APS that has males with gray under feather at the base of the tail... The over group is breeding to the revised Dutch standard, that has female with good laceing, but males with white under feathers.. Just before I started to learn about Barnevelders. I was a wear of this disagreement.

So What are we supposed to be breeding towards ? the APS2 or the revised Dutch standards which is all about the gene eb..

Can some one tell me ..

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 Post subject: Re: Barnevelders
PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2015 10:26 am 
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Old Mother Goose
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That's a tricky one. My preference would be for APS2 to reflect the standard from the place of origin. Unfortunately if you want to show and win with males - as opposed to showcasing the breed you need to breed to APS2. The other issue seems to be that there is an inverse relationship between the dark egg colour and good type in the hens This is what I think we should be working towards, as in the Marans, the egg colour is part of what defines the breed. Ideally the ultimate goal ould be a good type bird which lays the appropriate egg colour. Is this too much to ask? Should we consider seperate pullet and cockerel breeding - I hope not.


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 Post subject: Re: Barnevelders
PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2015 10:44 am 
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Is this too much to ask? Should we consider seperate pullet and cockerel breeding - I hope not.


That's a good point sue55, there will probably be pullet breeders and cockerel breeders in barnvelders next breeding season now..

My mums barnvelders lay very dark eggs and are of a good type which is (geerings line).

I have seen people selling the eb gene line eggs for a lot of money :hmmm: .But the eggs look like RIR eggs just tinted, not dark brown.. I do think the eb gene affects the colour of the egg too..

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 Post subject: Re: Barnevelders
PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2015 11:17 am 
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I will add this two,, the fastest way to get eb gene into your barnvelders is Barn (m) X RIR (f)
F1 (m) X Barn (f)

After seeing in the late 5 year on the net barnvelder x rir selling in the uk, something rang bells.

Now this is not new as Germany made bantams barnvelders with RIR bantams.

So I asked a some one in the uk , is this what is going on . They said yes..

So If Australia go's the same way as UK,Dutch, and north America. What happens with the APS2 and the dark eggs??

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 Post subject: Re: Barnevelders
PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2015 11:33 am 
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I think that it is not realistic to expect exhibition breeders to try to produce perfect show specimens and also select for a characteristic which is not rewarded on the show bench.
My preference is for pretty eggs ahead of pretty birds but I don't have a problem with there being more than one correct type of barnevelder depending on purpose.
It is hard to see a revival of dark brown egg barnevelders without some sort of concerted effort by breeders.


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 Post subject: Re: Barnevelders
PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2015 6:15 pm 
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Old Mother Goose
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OK, my understanding of poultry genetics has peaked at BB Bb & bb - eb? please explain

fusipes, this concerted effort is what I'm hoping this thread may assist with. I certainly don't have the resources to do it but as a group some progress could be made.


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 Post subject: Re: Barnevelders
PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2015 8:59 pm 
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Quote:
OK, my understanding of poultry genetics has peaked at BB Bb & bb - eb? please explain


Barnevelders are made up from e+ or they can be ewh or they can be eb. It's the black colour in Barnevelders. which shows up different in the chicks down..


Now in saying that you can breed a eb from a e+ or ewh, but it's like 1 in 10 if the parent birds don't carry eb..

There is more people on here that know a lot more then me on colour gene as they have the colour gene books... May be the can add to this..

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 Post subject: Re: Barnevelders
PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2015 9:59 pm 
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sue55 wrote:
OK, my understanding of poultry genetics has peaked at BB Bb & bb - eb? please explain

eb is one of the colour bases. Colour bases affect the way colours and patterns display. ie Two birds (eg barnevelders) with the same genetic colour makup but on different bases will have differences, sometimes subtle, sometimes not so.

All laced wyandottes are on an eb base. My basic understanding is that eb is the most suitable base to make a patterned hen. I would assume that the barnevelder hens on an eb base are prettier hence the attraction. I would suspect that in the quest to quickly repair the broken pattern genes after crossing to an eb base, some of the genes that enhance the egg colour were lost in some eb lines.

I don't know anything about the barnevelder standard or the breed but it sounds like the standard was based on a e+ or eWh and there has been a trend towards eb for the prettier pullets and a subsequent loss in egg colour.

That's all suspicions and assumptions surrounding a basic understanding of genetics but i hope it stirs some discussion that pushes things in the right direction ;-) .

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 Post subject: Re: Barnevelders
PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2015 10:33 am 
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Old Mother Goose
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Thanks Dotte. That does make a little sense........I think. It will be good to have some fresh eyes on the genetics here (hopefully will help to clear some of the 'old 'air) I suspect that there are a lot of similarities between Barnevelders and wWyandottes (geno and pheno)
Now, given that your proposed side project 'failed to proceed', you must have some room for Barnies.


Last edited by sue55 on Fri Jun 26, 2015 10:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Barnevelders
PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2015 10:49 am 
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Old Mother Goose
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OK now, so many questions
Why are our standards different - are they after showier, more laced males
- are they a reflection of what was available when the standards were set
Does eb effect the breast lacing in the males
What will be the implications of importing Barnevelders if they don't comply with our standards (British Standards?)
What are people observing re the relationship between male breast colour and the effect on female phenotype and egg colour (the proof is in the pudding) - I believe that the Geering birds have good results, what about others


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 Post subject: Re: Barnevelders
PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2015 11:30 am 
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Most of the experts say that egg colour is controlled by a dozen or more genes. I wonder whether there is any evidence that any of these genes are linked with plumage colour and pattern genes which seems to be the inference in some of the preceding comments.
My program to breed for a darker egg laying strain of Barnevelders is still in its early stages and will need an infusion of genes from other sources. I often see fertile Barnevelder eggs for sale but they are almost always very lightly coloured. It would be terrific if like minded people could co-operate in breeding projects such as this to obtain much more rapid progress but that is probably a fairly idealistic hope.
My limited experience with Barnevelders is that those I obtained and bred about 35 years ago laid quite dark and often speckled eggs. The markings of the hens was often more stippled than clearly laced and there was none of the the gingery colouring that often seems to crop up now.


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 Post subject: Re: Barnevelders
PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2015 11:42 am 
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Quote:
OK now, so many questions
Why are our standards different - are they after showier, more laced males
- are they a reflection of what was available when the standards were set


I read some of the history of Barnvelders in the early days. Most of the Barnverelders in the old farms talk of Barnvelders being black all over and only some with a very bad single or double lace.It was the showman that worked on the laceing. What did they use to work on it or how the bred it? ,no one knows :( .. But there's a lot of Idea's around..

Quote:
Does eb effect the breast lacing in the males

:hmmm: Don't know.. Do know from what I have seen from photo's from the dutch barnvelder club is the have white under feather not gray as in the APS2.

Quote:
What will be the implications of importing Barnevelders if they don't comply with our standards (British Standards?)
We have the same standards for barnvelders from day one.. If other countries want to change there standards that's up to them.. If Australia changes it's standards it's up to Australia.. For me at this time , I will breed to the Australian standards, until it changes.

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