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 Post subject: Re: Barnevelders
PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 11:35 am 
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Dapper Duck
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Thanks, Sue. :rowse
Digby is from a different line and I suspect he is eWh/eWh, so that would explain his brown colouring.
So pleased to be gaining this knowledge after only my second year hatching eggs, early in the scheme of things.

On the subject of egg colour - It is very hard to get judge colour by description.
So here is the collection for this past week.
They are contrasted with RIR eggs.


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 Post subject: Re: Barnevelders
PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 4:46 pm 
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Old Mother Goose
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article on breeding for egg colour (specifically Marans but probably relevent to other breeds)

http://www.maransofamericaclub.com/the-marans-egg
"Inheritance of Egg Colour in Marans" (click to read)

I've been trying to find a general (not Marans) colour chart for brown eggs - no luck
Might have to resort to a paint chart so that we can have some consistancy for discussion - what do you think?


Last edited by sue55 on Thu Jul 23, 2015 10:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Barnevelders
PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 5:19 pm 
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Dapper Duck
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I don't know whether this chart helps.
Barnevelders are suggested to lie at or either side of light russet (no.5).


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 Post subject: Re: Barnevelders
PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 8:30 pm 
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Old Mother Goose
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Thanks BarnieRaiser.
I have that chart, only problem is how much will it vary if it is printed from Dr G? Mine came up much lighter.

Probably OK as a general standard for discussion.


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 Post subject: Re: Barnevelders
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2015 9:47 pm 
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Old Mother Goose
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Only 2 girls laying ATM. (2 of the better ones) Here is a collection of their eggs.


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 Post subject: Re: Barnevelders
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2015 9:57 pm 
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Old Mother Goose
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A few of the girls are entered into a show next weekend. They're not convinced that todays experience is worth it.


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 Post subject: Re: Barnevelders
PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 12:04 am 
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Champion Bird
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Egg colour looks good Sue, i would call that terracotta but always hard to tell without seeing it first hand as you know. Looks like good consistency too :thumbs: .

The birds look horrible :rofl: , i bet they weren't happy with you today.....brrrrrrrr. How bout some pics when they dry out......please ;-) .

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 Post subject: Re: Barnevelders
PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 10:01 pm 
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Old Mother Goose
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Last nights hatch. Only 4/12 (young roo,early season) from 1, maybe 2 hens. BarnieRaiser, my eye stripes are not as defined as yours.

Chick 2 has a white breast. The other 3 are grey breasted. Any ideas?


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 Post subject: Re: Barnevelders
PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 10:43 pm 
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Champion Bird
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I would hazard a guess at 3 eb/eb and one eb/eWh.

Might catch andrewschooks attention if you ask in the what is this section. :idea:

edited to add: I would also hazard a guess at the white breast being female and the gray breast male..........just a guess.

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 Post subject: Re: Barnevelders
PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 1:07 am 
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Gallant Game
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I think the clues Blackdotte gave you all in the Barnevelder chick down thread, would have been good to have been listened to, in combination with those historical accounts linked to (including that no Dutch or USA Barnevelder males have red on the breast - this is a UK invention). Has anyone come across any account of wheaten based continental European Barnevelders, or American, that were not crossed at one time to Indian Games? Also remember that UK & Oz Dark Indian Games are usually wheaten based (but this not necessarily eWh - dominant wheaten allele). Do any purebred Dark Indian Games roosters have red on their breast like the UK Barnevelder?

As to natural feather undercolour (without other modifers) for the E locus allele:

eWh = light /whitish
e+ = slate-grey
eb = slate-grey
ey = slate-grey (these recently DNA sequenced - it is certain now that "recessive wheaten" is a unique E locus allele)

*But, keep in mind that there can be other white-bleaching modifiers, unrelated to E locus allele, that can cause white bleaching particularly in males: base of the tail (& white undercolour), white in sickles, wing flights, sometimes neck hackles, etc. Therefore it's best to check the breast undercolour & more overall, or the hens, if you are trying to work out the E locus allele (ie not the base of the tail).

Also, I've noticed in wheaten based Dark Indians Games that the feather undercolour is very dark - black. Hint - they are probably not eWh dominant wheaten ;)

Also, eWh is incompletely dominant to both e+ and eb (intermediate - more phaeomelanin but remnant narrow stripes), and e+ wild-type is (almost) completely dominant to eb in both chick down and adults.

So my guess is that Blackdotte is probably right in that the pale chick down (with the striping around the eye, dorsal stripes, etc) is possibly due to Uk breeders introducing pb modifiers in the original eb Barnevelder lines, this producing red on the male's breast & diluting/ heavily modifying the eb chick down. Because if you look at a lot of UK & OZ pb Partridge Wyandotte lines, the eb chick down is very diluted - not brown at all. They are nothing like US Partridge Wyandotte chicks. But I wouldn't rule out wheaten by phenotype alone - need all the modifiers to be removed, or DNA testing.

So my suggestion is to see if there are any correlations with diluted chick down to adult male single laced -red breast colour, & any correlation of darker chick down to adult male solid black breast. With the hens, see if there is a correlation with tail pattern etc, eg do the darker chicks in females have more solid coloured tails (not patterned)? & so on.... Ie, look for correlations that Carefoot found in pb & cb Partridge Wyandottes & Indian Games.


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 Post subject: Re: Barnevelders
PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 1:46 am 
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Old Mother Goose
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Thanks KazJaps, taking me a few reads to get my head around that - currently on a very steep learning curve. I had read Blackdottes chick down thread several times (and keep going back to it) This is why I asked the questions as there seems to be a great deal of conflicting theories about the colour sources of Australian Barnevelders - are they/should they be eb, eWh? Are mahogany or dilute more important than is recognised? What about ey?

From the historical literature that I have read, there is strong denial that Indian Game was used in the development of the standard Double Laced Barnevelder, but was used in the creation of the Bantam birds (this is not to say that it hasn't been introduced by some breeders at some time)

As for the correlations with chick down colour and adult feathering - that is the plan. Thanks for your advice re specifics to look for.


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 Post subject: Re: Barnevelders
PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 2:49 am 
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Hi KazJaps. Thank goodness someone with an in depth understanding of genetics has finally chimed in. I have been trying to steer the discussion as best as i can for the sake of a few passionate members but with only a new found basic understanding of genetics and no real world experience to draw from i have been feeling a bit of pressure and a little alone in my efforts. I have been vigorously researching this breed with a major update to this thread in mind but wanted to make sure i had some things clear in my head before i took the next step....would love your assistance with this.

You can probably guess by reading the thread from front to back that i knew absolutely nothing about the breed when the thread was started. I took it on as a learning opportunity and have subsequently fallen in love with the breed. In my research i have come across some of the things that you have touched on and wanted to further research some concepts to make sure it is clear in my head ready for the update. I have felt a bit of pressure in this regard due to the time of the season, wanting to get the info up so readers can develop strategies in their breeding plans. More pressure comes from the fact that i am also trying to learn more about my wyandottes so am a bit torn between the two when it comes to research. So glad you're here now and hoping you check in and contribute to the discussion.

You have already picked up on a couple of my mistakes and thank you for clearing them up. Will look for the info re chick down from Blackdotte and add it in. I must admit, i only skimmed the links that were put up earlier and need to spend a few hours going right back through everything. Up until recently i admittedly haven't been very diligent in my researching of the historical aspects of the breed or the differences to the standards in Australia and oversees. I have instead relied on input from other members which has caused some confusion for me which i have unfortunately passed on inadvertently.......another reason i feel i have a duty to do further research and update this thread.

So to touch on some of the points you raised. It's funny how the universe works because a lot of what you have raised i have only discovered or has only been bought to my attention in the last couple of days. Please remember that most of us aren't genetically minded and therefore are not intimately familiar with Carefoot's entire body of work nor do we have the inclination to buy all the books there is on genetics although there is still a lot of literature i would personally like to acquire. That stuff puts a lot of people to sleep which is why i am attempting to keep things watered down. My hope is that keeping it light will provide just enough basic understanding to create the hunger for a deeper understanding. Passion will take us so far but hunger takes us that bit further.

Bare in mind this is new knowledge to me so i hope i am not misinforming........again. Please correct anything you see that poses a threat to the breed, i certainly don't want that.

Firstly the misalignment between the Dutch standard and the Aus/UK standards. I have only found out this evening that the UK standard was changed due to a mistaken belief that lace breasted males could produce well laced females and that is not the case. Unfortunately the Aus standard followed in the footsteps of the UK and that left us in a position where if we want to breed to the standard and exhibit both males and females, double mating is required. Black breasted males is the Dutch standard and black breasted males produce better lacing in females. It is my opinion that our standard should be in line with the standard where the breed originates.........but that is just opinion and i don't wish initiate a communication breakdown.

Your info in regard to the bases suggests that what we have been thinking is eWh has in fact been eb all along but with some, as you call them, white-bleaching modifiers. Am i understanding this correctly?

So my suggestion is to see if there are any correlations with diluted chick down to adult male single laced -red breast colour, & any correlation of darker chick down to adult male solid black breast. With the hens, see if there is a correlation with tail pattern etc, eg do the darker chicks in females have more solid coloured tails (not patterned)? & so on.... Ie, look for correlations that Carefoot found in pb & cb Partridge Wyandottes & Indian Games.

Thank you for that, it is most helpful. I sincerely apologize for my lack of diligence up to this point but assure you that i don't intentionally want to lead anyone astray and will do my best to gather as much info as i can before contributing further. I am the kind of personality that does my best to help others unless i feel there is someone more qualified to do so.........baton passed :laughing .

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 Post subject: Re: Barnevelders
PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 10:07 am 
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The problem I have with indian game in the barvelder theory is they talk about egg numbers.
Indian game that was but in to a line in the UK didn't have the egg numbers, in what we see in Australian Barnvelder and they say that line with the indian game died out.

The problem I have with the Partridge Wyandotte is the dark mh ...

If you want Dutch Barvelders then inport them. As Australia has the old uk line and once gone, gone for ever, Will not be able to breed it back..

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 Post subject: Re: Barnevelders
PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 11:28 am 
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Sue, My guess would be boy, boy, girl, girl.
When I get a chick without a defined eye stripe I assume boy. The darker chest in 2 of the 3 eb/eb chicks would suggest girl.
This pic is a bit fuzzy but the chick in front with the light chest colour is male. The other three have darker grey chest colour and are probably girls. They also show more feather development in wing.


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 Post subject: Re: Barnevelders
PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 11:48 am 
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Thank you, KazJaps.
I will go back and read Blackdotte's thread. But in the meantime, when you said:
So my guess is that Blackdotte is probably right in that the pale chick down (with the striping around the eye, dorsal stripes, etc) is possibly due to Uk breeders introducing pb modifiers in the original eb Barnevelder lines.
My knowledge is limited at this stage, but does this suggest that the eWh base arose due to a dominant melaniser inhibitor introduced into the eb base?

DottesnSilk, your take on things always so helpful.

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