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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 3:34 pm 
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Dapper Duck
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Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:27 am
Posts: 26
Location: NSW
Hi All,

I bought some fertile eggs from a Breeder and was told they were Silver Cuckoo Marans x 3 and Blue/Black Copper Marans x 2, no where as dark as I expected.

The 2 Blue/Black Coppers both hatched, while with the Silver Cuckoo 1 not fertile, 1 pipped/chipped then failed to hatch overnight :-( 1 hatched and is the biggest.

They are 2+weeks now and I was getting concerned as all the google images of Silver Cuckoos were dark chicks and "Legs" was a very pale lemon fluffy chick (it's Mum partly crushed it's egg while hatching and all that you could see were these big strong legs), as the wing feathers started to come in they were looking biscuit in colour, definitely not dark grey.

As I was preparing to send a message to the breeder to ask if I had the right breed I realised that these feathers looked very similar to our older Wheaton Marans :hmmm: so I asked if there was any chance Legs may be Wheaton, the reply shocked me, what I beleived to be Silver Cuckoo eggs where in fact Silver Cuckoo Roo over Wheaton Hens :-?

So lots of questions now as I was looking at staring a breeding program;
Is there a genetic reason to do this?
Can I call Legs a Silver Cuckoo or is she (being hopeful) just a pure cross breed?
If I was to breed with her what colour would I use Silver Cuckoo or Wheaton?
What colour chicks should I expect, I'd imagine a variety of colours as she is a mixed colour?
Should she just be a layer, hopefully off darker eggs than she came from, another disappointment..

I also found out that the Blue/Black Copper Marans are actually Blue Wheaton Roo over Black Copper Hens :aaah!

So the same questions as above are relevant for Marion and Nuggets with the following modifications;
Are they Blue Wheaton or Black/Blue Copper, their wing feathers are charcoal/blue definitely not true black, with dark brown?
If I was to breed with them what colour would I use?

Maybe this will be a learning lesson and I'll just have them for their eggs and as pretty layers, not the start of a breeding line, they'd better be pretty, aaah humbug....

Thanks in anticipation of your help :-)


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:36 pm 
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Great Game
Great Game

Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2010 12:20 pm
Posts: 1277
Location: Thirlmere nsw
Strange, no expert but i would have swapped the roos over, i think Jose would be a good one to ask as he has these colour marans.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:39 pm 
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Dapper Duck
Dapper Duck

Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:27 am
Posts: 26
Location: NSW
Thanks for the reply Mycoola,

This is my 1st post, I've read lots of info here at BYP but haven't posted before.

I'm just not sure if I breed from these chicks, if I can in all fairness call them a specific colour?

I hope jose reads the post :-)


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:25 am 
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Golden Phoenix
Golden Phoenix

Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2007 10:39 am
Posts: 10113
Location: Tarago, near Goulburn
The Cuckoo is a tricky one, as the only variety known in Australia is the clean-shanked English variety brought in by AvGen.

Any other Cuckoo Marans will have been developed in Australia from outcrosses to another breed - possibly Plymouth Rock, but I don't know for sure.

The Blue and Black Copper Marans were developed using outcrosses to Croad Langshan, which also accounts for the blue Wheaten that turns up occasionally - again, unless the person is using AvGen stock.

In short, I would suspect you have project birds, which aren't always going to breed true at this stage.

What is your breeding aim?


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:18 pm 
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Dapper Duck
Dapper Duck

Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:27 am
Posts: 26
Location: NSW
Hi infoaddict,
Thanks for your info :-)
I'm in the early stages of getting pure breeds with the aim down the track to breed and sell them along with showing. So when I discovered these other colourings coming through I was upset.
I was thinking they must have been project birds/colours as I've been reading up on the breeding and in a few BYP articles they have gone into the genetics and explained F1, F2, F3 etc crosses, as these babes are feathering and colouring up the more sure I am that their parents are not pure "stable" colours yet :-(
I'm not even sure if they can be called pure Marans?
"Legs" supposedly a Silver Cuckoo Marans, turns out to be Silver Cuckoo Roo over Wheaton Hens, who is looking very Wheaton at the moment, with only a very few tiny patches of down it it's legs.
"Marion" and "Nuggets" supposedly from a Blue/Black Copper Marans pen, I've had clarified, are in fact from a Blue Wheaton Roo over Black Copper Hens, both have fluffy legs, Marion very heavily so, are showing a lot of "Copper" over their necks, backs and shoulders, not sure if this is misguided hackle colouring or 2 cockerals in the making.
I'll see what they look like as they get older, however at this stage I'm resigning my self to the fact that they may well just be adding to our laying flock (if they are hens), and not to standard for anything more.
Very disappointing and frustrating.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:11 am 
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Golden Phoenix
Golden Phoenix

Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2007 10:39 am
Posts: 10113
Location: Tarago, near Goulburn
That is definitely disappointing.

While those crosses are colour crosses within the breed, making the offspring pure Marans (although I'm still dubious about the cuckoo ones), the colour mix makes them non-Standard for showing purposes.

Love to see some pics, anyway. They should make nice layers in your flock, and give you an idea of the Marans type you'd like to concentrate on - Wheaten, Copper, something else (I know Birchen is in development - the pattern seems to turn up naturally in the Copper birds, so no outcross required), or even the English-style clean-shanked birds (in Cuckoo mostly that I'm aware of).


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 3:29 pm 
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Dapper Duck
Dapper Duck

Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:27 am
Posts: 26
Location: NSW
Hi infoaddict,

Here are some photos of my Marans?

"Legs" is the Yellow down (Silver Cuckoo), "Nugget" & "Marion" are the 2 darker chicks (Blue/Black Copper Marans), their hatch siblings are 5 Red Anconas.

I'm going to need to post the photos separately as my file size is to big.


Attachments:
File comment: hatching day, 3 Marans, 5 Red Anconas :-)
002.jpg
002.jpg [ 414.18 KiB | Viewed 3341 times ]
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:02 pm 
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Dapper Duck
Dapper Duck

Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:27 am
Posts: 26
Location: NSW
Ok, here goes with more photos, I found the compress button :-)


Attachments:
File comment: Learning to feed as day olds, Legs stands out already.
005c.jpg
005c.jpg [ 53.75 KiB | Viewed 3327 times ]
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:24 pm 
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Dapper Duck
Dapper Duck

Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:27 am
Posts: 26
Location: NSW
Chicks at 10 days, this is when I started to question if the colours were correct.

Legs wing colour coming cream and biscuit (supposed to be Silver Cuckoo), Marion looking more blue, Nugget is darker however not true black (both from the Blue/Black Copper pen).


Attachments:
File comment: 10 days, Marion in the mash dish, looking more blue then black.
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File comment: 10 days old discovering mash, Nugget eating, Legs wing colour starting to show.
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001c.jpg [ 133.33 KiB | Viewed 3326 times ]
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:52 pm 
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Dapper Duck
Dapper Duck

Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:27 am
Posts: 26
Location: NSW
2 weeks, big differences in wing feathering, maybe this is going to be a sexing method?

Spoke with breeder and found out that Legs (Silver Cuckoo) is in fact from a Silver Cuckoo Marans Roo over French Wheaton Marans Hens.

Marion and Nugget (Blue/Black Copper Marans) are from a Blue Wheaton Marans Roo over Black Copper Marans Hens.

Very disappointed as I thought they were pure colours :shock:


Attachments:
File comment: 2 weeks L-R, Nugget, Legs, Anconas, Marion,
thinking 2 Cockerels and 1 Pullet, if wing feathering is is a sexing method for Marans?

002c.jpg
002c.jpg [ 93.95 KiB | Viewed 3325 times ]
File comment: 2 weeks, Nuggets and Marion, copper staring to show through, I'm thinking they are both Blues?
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File comment: 2 weeks Legs, wings colouring up looking very Wheaton?
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File comment: 2 weeks, Nugget and Marion, big difference in wing feathering, maybe a pullet and cockerel?
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File comment: 2 weeks, L-R Legs, Ancona, Nuggets, Marion
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002c.jpg [ 81.92 KiB | Viewed 3325 times ]
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:11 pm 
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Dapper Duck
Dapper Duck

Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:27 am
Posts: 26
Location: NSW
The latest photos, they are now 4 weeks old.


Attachments:
File comment: Marion 4 weeks, lots of Copper showing through.
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037c.jpg [ 102.07 KiB | Viewed 3326 times ]
File comment: Marion 4 weeks, longest tail of the Marans.
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File comment: Nugget 4 weeks, light feathering on outside of both legs.
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File comment: Nugget 4 weeks, lacing on wings showing up?
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File comment: Nugget 4 weeks, still no tail.
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033c.jpg [ 95.24 KiB | Viewed 3326 times ]
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:25 pm 
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Dapper Duck
Dapper Duck

Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:27 am
Posts: 26
Location: NSW
Do you think these 3 are looking like standard colours or are they really looking like cross breeds?

Perhaps anybody that is breeding for colours or working on projects may be able to give some insight as to whether these maybe F2's or F3's,

I'd also appreciate any thoughts on sexes of these 3, Marion, Nugget and Legs, if wing and tail feathering are a sexing method then Nugget and Legs are the same gender, with late/slow wing feathering and still no tail, while Marion is different, early/fast wing feathers and a longer tail this was obvious at 10-14 days.

Looking forward to you thoughts on colours and sexes of these please :laughing


Attachments:
File comment: Marion 4 weeks, heavy feathering on both legs and outside toe.
038c.jpg
038c.jpg [ 87.05 KiB | Viewed 3325 times ]
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:27 am 
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Dapper Duck
Dapper Duck

Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:27 am
Posts: 26
Location: NSW
Here's Legs,

I missed adding her/his pics when I added Nuggets and Marion's.

Any thoughts on gender?

Being a colour cross of Blue Wheaton Marans Roo over Black Cooper Marans Hens, is feather colour going to be a way of sexing?

I'll get more photos on the weekend and add, they'll be 5 weeks then :-)

I'd love some thoughts on these 3 as to what gender they may be, also as to whether I should just add then to my laying flock or if I could/should breed and sell their young, as although they are pure Marans their colours are mixed?

Waiting in anticipation :th


Attachments:
File comment: Legs 4 weeks, still no tail maybe it's a cockerel?
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File comment: Legs at 4 weeks, I'm thinking the colouring is pullet however, being a cross of 2 colours does that change the outcome?
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039c.jpg [ 167.71 KiB | Viewed 3199 times ]
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 9:58 pm 
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Fiesty Fowl
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Joined: Sun Nov 08, 2009 4:30 pm
Posts: 1052
Location: south penrith nsw
hi there, from those photos I would say theyre all boys definitely nugget is,the other 2 im 80% sure are boys but a few more weeks will tell you for sure

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 10:18 pm 
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Dapper Duck
Dapper Duck

Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:27 am
Posts: 26
Location: NSW
Thanks klw,

I have some more photos ready to post :-)

They are 7 weeks now and the last few days I've seen a lot of chest thumping going on, the 3 Marans are with 5 Red Anconas, hatch siblings, today I realised that all 5 Anconas each have 2 pointed side tail feathers showing through, pretty sure they are all cockerals :-(

I appreciate your thoughts on the new photos if you don't mind?

If all the Marans are boys I don't like my chance of finding homes for them as although they are pure, they come from mixed coloured parents :-(

I've learnt from my mistake though, always ask what colour both parents are and get photos 1st.

Thanks heaps for your reply :biggrin:


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