Backyard Poultry Forum • View topic - Crossing Marans with Welsummers

Backyard Poultry Forum

Chickens, waterfowl & all poultry - home of exhibition & backyard poultry in Australia & New Zealand
Login with a social network:
It is currently Sat Jan 23, 2021 11:32 am

All times are UTC + 10 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 25 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 6:51 pm 
Offline
Site Administrator
Site Administrator
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 11, 2008 8:44 am
Posts: 31530
Location: Morayfield, SEQ
I have taken a pure wheaten marans cockerel and put him over some pure welsummer hens. I did that last year.

So I put one of these marans boys (very young here)

Image

over this welsummer hen and a couple of her sisters

Image

and ended up with pullets looking like this. They are obviously split e+/wh, but every one of them looks like a welsummer so I gather that the e+ is dominant. I've heard that sometimes wh can be dominant under certain conditions but I don't know what they are and I didn't see it here. They have differing degrees of leg feathering.

Image

Image

I then put this pure wheaten marans cock over them:

Image

Now I am hatching those eggs. What I have is a mixture of chicks that are 75% marans and 25% welsummer. Some will be wh/wh, and some will be e+/wh.

Some of the chicks have lesser striping, some have very pale and some have no striping but still have an orangy tinge to their down. There are some that don't have any hint of striping, but have some orangy tinges to their down. Would that be Ar from the welsummer? I will just get some photos of the chicks.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 6:56 pm 
Offline
Old Mother Goose
Old Mother Goose
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2006 5:06 pm
Posts: 5886
Location: Canberra
Hey CH07

Sorry I cant help with the colour questions. Are you aiming to bring Welsummer vigour into the Marans line? Sounds like a good choice to cross to.

Keep us informed :thumbs:

Raf

_________________
Breeder of Blue Laced Red Wyandottes.

See www.bluelacedgold.wordpress.com for details


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 7:03 pm 
Offline
Site Administrator
Site Administrator
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 11, 2008 8:44 am
Posts: 31530
Location: Morayfield, SEQ
Yes Raf. My earlier marans were inclined to drop dead if you looked at them sideways. They were also a little small. My welsummers are big and tough and lay like troopers. The end result from this may not make it to a showpen, but they will at least be a decent backyarder that lays brown eggs and stays alive most of the time.

Just to remind myself what I'm mixing:

Welsummer - e+/e+ s+/s+ (s+/-) Ar+/Ar+ Id/Id(Id/-) w/w

and the only genotype info I can find on the wheaten marans is from David:

blackdotte wrote:
Reeder found the typical genotype for Wheaten Marans & OEG, and Salmon Faverolles included Mahogany &/or Dilute. The colour range varies from homozygous Dilute with no Mahogany (Cream) to homozygous Mahogany with no Dilute (Clay).When both genes are present in the heterozygous state all in between shades are segregated.
David


Pure marans chick for reference (I think, hatched together so not entirely foolproof)

Image
Image

Now for the crosses.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 7:13 pm 
Offline
Site Administrator
Site Administrator
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 11, 2008 8:44 am
Posts: 31530
Location: Morayfield, SEQ
This is what I think must be e+/wh. The striping is there, but diminished. Would I be right in thinking that? They are a good sized chick as the welsummer influence seems to result in a bigger egg.

Image

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 7:17 pm 
Offline
Site Administrator
Site Administrator
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 11, 2008 8:44 am
Posts: 31530
Location: Morayfield, SEQ
This one I think is also split although the striping is lighter again. The orange tinge is showing up more on this one.

Image

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 7:23 pm 
Offline
Site Administrator
Site Administrator
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 11, 2008 8:44 am
Posts: 31530
Location: Morayfield, SEQ
I also have some that have no striping at all so I'm thinking wh/wh. There is that strong orange tinge and I was just wondering if this is an indication of Mahogany or of Autosomal Red. I wouldn't know. I'll see how they feather up.

Image

I am planning to put the girls from this batch back to their father again to get back to the marans appearance. It will be interesting to see how they grow out this year.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 7:41 pm 
Offline
Fiesty Fowl
Fiesty Fowl
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2011 11:39 am
Posts: 1075
Location: Canna Western Australia
I think it may be diluted mahogany , How is the colour of the eggs in your first cross?
I have some godborg marans cross just started today and the colour is very nice,
I used a brown godborg hen as she layed a light brown egg and with the crest knew I would be able to tell the first and second crosses by the crest feathers.
mine all hatched wheaten with partial leg feathering.

_________________
Starting out to breed Australorps & Marans and a couple more


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 7:45 pm 
Offline
Site Administrator
Site Administrator
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 11, 2008 8:44 am
Posts: 31530
Location: Morayfield, SEQ
Egg colour in the first cross is good. There is some variation but it ranges from very dark to mid brown. I don't get better than that from the marans anyway. The eggs tend to be bigger which I think is a bonus. They darker ones also have the high gloss of the marans. When I get enough of them I will begin to be more picky about egg colour.

I also have a couple of pens of pure marans. They lay slightly smaller eggs of a similar colour and they lay less frequently.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 8:01 pm 
Offline
Old Mother Goose
Old Mother Goose
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2006 5:06 pm
Posts: 5886
Location: Canberra
I think the chick down colour is Ar in my experience amyway. One of the ways of seeing Ar. Mahogany doesnt do that, but Mahogany may interplay with the striping.

I have also found the wild type striping in the chick down to be split wheaten phenomenon. Its colour can vary from light to dark, not sure what causes the variation.

I dont think Marans have Dilute Di. Ive seen them crossed multiple timees and I just dont see the evidence of Di.

Good work on the photographic evidence, it is so much better for future understanding than saying, "I know what Ive always seen and dont argue with me"

Im sure ruff will discuss the chick down further. One day I suppose I have to read the Chick down masterclass topic.

:geek:
Raf

_________________
Breeder of Blue Laced Red Wyandottes.

See www.bluelacedgold.wordpress.com for details


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 8:18 pm 
Offline
Prime Pekin
Prime Pekin
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2005 9:48 am
Posts: 3292
Quote:
Would that be Ar from the welsummer?

Both Partridge Welsummer & Wheaten Marans have Ar+, neither has Dilute or Mahogany.
e+ is dominant to Wheaten (except when the Wheaten is in combination with recessive black ie as in Rhode Island Red, not the case here).
The chance of getting e+/eWh & e+/e+ or eWh/eWh is about the same as yellow/white shanks, W/w+ & W/W White or w+/w+ yellow.
David


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 8:27 pm 
Offline
Site Administrator
Site Administrator
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 11, 2008 8:44 am
Posts: 31530
Location: Morayfield, SEQ
Thanks Raf. I've tried the chick down masterclass a few times, but I'm not knowledgeable enough for a lot of it. I will go back to it as it becomes relevant and I can understand it better.

blackdotte wrote:
Quote:
Would that be Ar from the welsummer?

Both Partridge Welsummer & Wheaten Marans have Ar+, neither has Dilute or Mahogany.
e+ is dominant to Wheaten (except when the Wheaten is in combination with recessive black ie as in Rhode Island Red, not the case here).
The chance of getting e+/eWh & e+/e+ or eWh/eWh is about the same as yellow/white shanks, W/w+ & W/W White or w+/w+ yellow.
David

Thanks David. So I'm seeing the effects of Ar+ and it's fine to have it there. Thanks also for the explanation on the dominance of e+. That fits perfectly with what I'm seeing and the chances of the possible outcomes are straight forward. Thanks for the confirmation.

So by putting the eWh/eWh cock (yes, he's yours David and as virile as they come :wink: ) over the split girls, I should now have half splits and half eWh/eWh.

Will there be any distinguishing features inherited from the wellies that would help me tell apart the pure marans chicks from the 75/25 eWh/eWh chicks? I thought the pure marans were paler in colour, but if the wheaten marans have Ar+ as well, perhaps that's just natural variation and I'm going to find them hard to separate in a mixed hatch.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:25 pm 
i have 3/4 marans 1/4 indians and 1/2 barnie 1/2 marans and damned if i can tell the difference at hatch. as adults in the hens i think the barnie crosses have some form of feint stippling on the back. egg colour seems to be the same as the 3/4's. the only way i feel i can tell the difference is the pures have more leg feather and their backs become bare from the roosters mounting them. combs and faces seem a little different too.

i have decided it is all too difficult to try and work out so decided to go on egg colour and shape and type conformation, considering i have not been impressed with the type of the pure marans then i will presume all these are the pures.

now i have the next cross coming through with 3/4 marans barnie and 7/8 marans indians as well as the pures who i have no idea what is what. they range from feathery legs to bare legs. i will cull out all the non feathered leg roosters and keep the feather legs. i will then cull out all the roosters with knock knees and then see if i have any left :roll:

then i will look at egg colour of the pullets. i really want to do a cross between the 3/4 marans 1/4 indian with all the hens now but i have not the room to put the rooster. i wish i could find somewhere to agist them and get eggs back.

they are all fantastic layers. i have never kept birds that lay so well.


Top
  
 
PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 6:36 am 
Offline
Superior Bird
Superior Bird
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2007 1:03 am
Posts: 3148
Location: Crossfield, AB, CANADA!
Chicken 07, I think you are well on your way to developing Golden Salmon Marans as well. I think it is something you should really consider.
Have a look here:
http://www.bevsmarans.com/golden_salmon.htm


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 11:08 am 
Offline
Champion Bird
Champion Bird
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2007 6:27 pm
Posts: 793
It looks like an interesting project and one worth considering I feel an isa brown that lays a good dark egg could also be worthy of consideration to cross as they at least have Marans blood in their genetics. It was worthy of note that one of the 1st x pullets displayed yellow legs indercating your Marans male is a carrier for yello leg that may indercate other blood in the your Marans, something that I have always considered possible as they would be even more inbred than what they are if something else had not been put in them a few generations back, possible isa brown but who knows.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 9:32 pm 
Offline
Site Administrator
Site Administrator
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 11, 2008 8:44 am
Posts: 31530
Location: Morayfield, SEQ
Coops, I think you mentioned that once before. It would be interesting. I wonder what the genetic makeup of the Golden Salmon would be. The chicks on that site look like duckwing so I'd have to put a chick back to a split parent or else do a sibling mating. Then I wonder what else I would need.

CM, good point about the yellow legs. I hadn't thought about that.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 25 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC + 10 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 21 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
©2004-2014 Backyardpoultry.com. Content rights reserved
freestone