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PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2015 2:24 pm 
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Superior Bird
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Thanks folks for the discussion.

I now get it! The "background history" of the terms and adding the 'Recognised' and why - yes it all makes sense.

Except that judge you met Cathy - HE is just messing with my head now :-? :aaargh: :laughing


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2015 3:00 pm 
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Mottled Pekins allows for light undercolour only in males, as that is whats required on black Pekins. The black Wyandotte is already standarised with dark undercolour, so I really don't see the issue. A black Wyandotte with a white tip on the end of each feather! Anconas are a unique case in having a V-tip, and doesn't use the word "mottled" at all to describe its plumage. I am not saying ditch the APS (that would be a disaster), what I am saying is its important to have a bit of common sense when using the standard and apply the knowledge better. I think you would be hard pressed to find a competent judge that couldn't assess the quality of some good mottled Wyandottes.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2015 3:14 pm 
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I just think it's already hard when judging with the likes of dark barred Plymouth rock females and other cockerel breeding females and pullet breeding males at a show. Very frustrating when one of these are clearly the best type of the class but just shouldn't be there. Then you have non standard coloured birds. Heaven forbid if a judge picks one of these birds either unknowingly or otherwise for a major award or even class champion. They will get crucified by some bystander for awarding a non standard bird. I know I try and stay on top of what colours are standard and what are not because you can't rely on some of the breeders to help you.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2015 3:23 pm 
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No doubt you could do a good job Andy. Not sure about all. We have a few mottled dottes that I quite like but I haven't shown them.

If you don't like the wyandotte example, how about one that took place this year. A show had a frizzled Houdan entered. Not sure on the class. It might have been AO something or it may have been in the Houdan class. Houdans are not frizzled in the Standards. Anyway, it had a crest and five toes and frizzled feathers. It was rather nice actually. The judge awarded it as best over three breeds that had been grouped. It beat some very nice standard fowl. Looking back, I think the judge thought it was a frizzled Polish. He gave this bit of a chat in his judges remarks about watching for multiple toes on some breeds and keeping those combs tidy and small on Polish. LOL The fact is the judges don't know what they are being asked to judge. He's assumed it was a Polish because there's a Polish in the Standard and that's the guide used to judge the fowls. Then rightly or wrongly, there was uproar amongst crested breeds folk because something that was not a standard breed had beaten other legitimate birds, even though the show schedule stated that the show was being run under the auspices of the APS.

You might say that's just administrative, but I like the KISS principle for this stuff. Give the judge a chance and enter the birds he's equipped to evaluate.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2015 3:32 pm 
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This is why I am happy to get behind the development class idea, so good birds of non standard breed or colour can be shown. All other classes that are judged by aps2 any wrongly entered birds should not be awarded by rights.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2015 3:38 pm 
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Personally I am not keen on anything frizzled except the frizzle breed itself, but they seem to be spreading through quite a few breeds, and a good specimen can often stand out. Probably seems like double standards, but I would have been scratching my head with that frizzled houdan winning also :D Makes it hard to draw a line in the sand. Its a pity APS committee didn't put AORC definition in their appendix and define is as needing to be recognised within the text of the breed and not outside a breed. My understanding is its a grey area, and people are going to be divided on this one, particularly judges at the moment.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2015 9:40 am 
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In the absence of a solid definition, I still maintain it comes back to intent.

If a club puts AORC in their schedule they have generally done so to prevent non-standard colours (for the breed in question) being exhibited at their show. These clubs should probably be providing a definition within their Conditions of Entry to prevent confusion.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2015 10:01 pm 
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We do provide a definition but only in the section where most wouldn't look, in the info section. Short of putting the definition under every class where we have it I am not sure what else to do. We also mention that our show is run and judged as per the current Australian Standards. I feel the word will get out in time to consult the standard before you think about entering in a show.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2015 2:50 pm 
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Should not the Chief Stewards or Secretaries or whoever it is that accepts entry forms at shows stop the entry of non standard birds at the outset? Shouldn't they check their Standard every time they get an entry form in the mail and contact the exhibitor to offer an explanation as to why the bird can't be shown?

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2015 3:14 pm 
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Old Mother Goose
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pullarius wrote:
Should not the Chief Stewards or Secretaries or whoever it is that accepts entry forms at shows stop the entry of non standard birds at the outset? Shouldn't they check their Standard every time they get an entry form in the mail and contact the exhibitor to offer an explanation as to why the bird can't be shown?



In the real world that would be nice, but the reality is that these people volunteer their time and already have a heavy workload with show organisation. The job is often large and shouldered by the same few every time.

Should not those who enter their birds have to sign a statement to say that they are familiar with the APS2 and believe that their birds comply with the standard for the breed (or class)? Yes the book is expensive, but familiarity with the requirements of what you are showing is not unreasonable to expect. Breed clubs can also offer this advice.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2015 6:43 pm 
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When entries come in to a show unless you ring every person with a bird in the any other colour class and the any other variety the first time a non standrd bird is spotted is on show day when the judge and his/her accompanying steward come to judge them. You can have the "please state colour" or "please state breed" but they rarely do. So then we have either the judge doesn't pick up on it, the judge still awards it even though it is non standard or the judge disqualifies it.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2015 9:56 pm 
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Simple.

The schedule says AORC and defines it. The schedule says state colour when entering AORC. The schedule says show judged as per APS2.

If an bird is entered that is not a recognized colour for the breed in question then disqualify it. What's the point in putting conditions in the schedule if the club isn't going to uphold them.

Forget arguments such as people are busy. I've been in this position and you spend more time stuffing around with exhibitors wanting to change entries at the last minute. If you want to run the show properly then run it properly.

The judge should not be the first person to see wrongly entered birds. The steward should be aware of what is in their section well before the judge gets to it. If this means taking an extra minute to run an eye over a AORC class then then do it. Seriously, there won't be that many entries to look at.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2015 10:56 pm 
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Gallant Game
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Yes agree David, sounds very easy. Our stewards are good stewards but that doesn't mean they know all accepted colours and varieties in the standard off by heart. Getting 1100 birds in pens in a bit over two hours is a task big enough than to find time to check all aorc and aorv birds which would be many entries. We instruct our appointed judges to pass over and disqualify all non standard birds and let them to sort them out. The more people that we can educate so they can realise what is right and wrong the less of these non standard birds will be entered so I think this is the way to go.

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