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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2015 10:32 pm 
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Prime Pekin
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Hi Folks

I would be so appreciative if someone could very simply FULLY define the following terms, which I have seen on schedules for poultry shows. In terms of an exhibitor, what do these terms in fact really mean? I think this would really help all newbies and some of us oldies :)


ARC - Any recognised colour
AORC - Any other recognised colour
AOC - Any other colour
AC - Any colour


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2015 10:44 pm 
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TookTook wrote:
Hi Folks

I would be so appreciative if someone could very simply FULLY define the following terms, which I have seen on schedules for poultry shows. In terms of an exhibitor, what do these terms in fact really mean? I think this would really help all newbies and some of us oldies :)


ARC - Any recognised colour


as it says, any recognised colour for the breed

Quote:
AORC - Any other recognised colour

any recognised colour of any breed in the whole standards

Quote:
AOC - Any other colour

usually refers to colours in the standard for the breed that may not ohav ebeen listed eg pekins may only have classes for black, white, and any other colour. sometimes interpreted to mean any other colour in the standard, but usually just refers to colours listed in standard for breed.

Quote:
AC - Any colour


any colour at all..............is my understanding.


that is my understanding. I may be wrong :-)

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 1:25 am 
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ARC - Any recognised colour
AORC - Any other recognised colour
AOC - Any other colour
AC - Any colour

All these abbreviations refer to the same thing, only to the recognized colours listed for a specific breed in our standards. As with all our breeds the only colours that are recognized are the ones listed for that breed under the breeds specific heading.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 8:13 am 
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Thanks very much for your replies.

It can be quite confusing to have four different ways of saying the same thing.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2015 8:43 pm 
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TookTook wrote:
It can be quite confusing to have four different ways of saying the same thing.


I don't think it is four different ways of saying the same thing.

For a start, colour and variety are two very different things. Wyandottes & Pekins are two different varieties, Black and Mottled are two different colours.

Caladenia is on the money.

AOC is any colour recognised in the Standard for any breed. The Australian Poultry Standard edition 2 (APS2) does defines AOC = "any other colour recognized in this text" - meaning the APS2.

APS2 does not define AORC but the intent of those that use AORC in their schedule is to narrow the colours to those listed for a particular breed to those listed in the ASP2 for that breed.

For example, the Australian Langshan standard recognizes only three colours - Black, Blue & White. So, if a schedule had classes for Black & AORC then only Blue and White would be eligible. If the class was AOC then technically Splash could also be shown as it is described as a colour in the standard for other breeds. Come to that, you could also exhibit Buff or Duckwing Langshans if they were developed. This is the reason many clubs opt for AORC rather than AOC.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2015 8:58 pm 
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David Geering wrote:
TookTook wrote:
It can be quite confusing to have four different ways of saying the same thing.


I don't think it is four different ways of saying the same thing.

For a start, colour and variety are two very different things. Wyandottes & Pekins are two different varieties, Black and Mottled are two different colours.



I'm really sorry David but now I am more confused !

a) how do ARC and AC fit into the equation then?
b) you reference variety - I thought these abbreviations were referring only to colour?


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2015 10:03 pm 
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I will add my perspective to the mix. ;-)

Wyandottes and Pekins are breeds

Gold Laced Wyandottes and Silver Laced Wyandottes are varieties of Wyandottes.

AOC and AORC are the same thing because if a colour is not listed for that breed in the APS2 then it is a non-standard variety and not covered by the Standards. For instance, I breed a few mottled wyandottes. They are a non-standard variety. I can only show them in a demonstration class in clubs shows run under the APS or sometimes in a specialist breed club show if they have a class for them. They are a non-standard variety of a standard breed even though mottled is standard for some other breeds.

I find it confusing that people think that any colour mentioned in the 'text' anywhere is a standard variety for any breed in the standard. If that was the case, why list colours under breeds at all? We might as well just have one generic list. That is not how it has been done at this point in time.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2015 10:09 pm 
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AORC has only been introduced recently because the old term AOC was either being exploited or not being understood. AOC has always meant for that breed that is recognised in the standard. The word recognised was added in the hope of stopping non standard colours appearing in the normal classes at a show. Quite simple really.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2015 11:20 pm 
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Cathy, you can have varieties to represent breeds also. For example, "AOV" would include any breed that doesn't have a class in the schedule. It often happens when you want to enter something like legbars that don't appear in many schedules, thus they would be entered as AOV SF light. "AOC" would be for example, when you want to enter your buff Wyandottes, but they only list 5 colours of wyandottes: Black, columbian, white, silverlaced, gold laced, so they go in the AOC Wyandotte (some call it AORC).

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2015 7:11 am 
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Thanks Andy. Sorry missed that use. Yes have to agree that's done too. I don't tend to use the word generally in that way but yes, schedules do do that around here too.

Lawnton has an annual Rare Breed and Rare Variety show in April every year and in that case the word variety means something different to just the breed. It might might a different recognised colour or a different recognised variety because it has a muff or a different comb or some other feature. On that schedule it means a variety of a breed.

In all cases in affiliated club shows in QLD though anything listed refers to something in the Standard, not to a non-standard colour or breed. That should be the case anyway if the show is being conducted under the APS. Ag shows might be different and people tend to relax a bit with requirements there where it's less club oriented and more 'local community' oriented.

It's funny how regions get different uses of little things like this. Slightly different but I was watching BB judging at the Wyandotte show earlier this year and he was putting up B on a pen and I was puzzling over that. ? A lot of people probably do it but I was running through words in my heads like Breed?? and going, but they're all wyandottes?? Or Brian?? Why would he put his initial on the best?? :laughing He was obviuosly indicating the winning bird so I worked it out quickly but I had a chemo-fogged brain on that day. Around here I usually see numbers go up like 1, 2 or 3; or otherwise you see CH or RC.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2015 8:21 am 
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Yes, B = Best :), great for when you have best of a colour or breed sash. I think its good that judges write on the pen numbers, although some judges have doctors handwriting so can sometimes take a bit to decipher. Certainly helps when your photographing birds to have the judges scribble on the pens to double check you have the right bird.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2015 11:18 am 
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The AOV or AV definition wasn't asked about in the original question but is definitely required at the end of each section in the schedule. We include in our schedule that we run and judge under aps2. This really should keep all the non standard breeds and colours out but some either don't know or choose not to know. Education is needed as I am finding this to be a growing problem with the trend of keeping different birds growing. AOC or AC should be sufficient but now we are trying AORC and still having problems. I am sure we will get there.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:27 pm 
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The concern of birds being exhibited that are of colours not listed under its individual breed description is an interesting one. You could argue that, for example, mottled wyandottes are not a recognised colour of wyandotte even though this is an established colour in Australia, and quite honestly I can't see why they can't be judged at a show. Ironically Mottled Marans on the other hand are listed as a standardised colour for the breed in APS2, yet I don't think they exist anywhere in the world! let alone Australia. Personally I don't want to see good birds disqualified or have their heads chopped off, I think we just have to use a bit of common sense.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:35 pm 
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We have had cases where birds not covered by the APS have beaten birds that are. In a show that is said to be run under that Standard, it creates issues.

If we don't work with the Standard, why have it? You could just use the BPS as before? Or have none at all if there's isn't one for a entry, as can also be the case.

How would you judge a mottled wyandotte? What standard would you use? That of the pekin perhaps which might be best? (Lighter undercolour permissable?) Or that for the Ancona which is quite different? (Dark undercolour) Just take your pick? We know there are differences in mottling also between breeds.

No doubt there are more highly prioritised features of a wyandotte than the undercolour or mottling, however the principle of having a set standard by which you judge and compare fowls is a very good one.

The concern is not about keeping birds out of competition. It's about not having an agreed standard on which to judge them. To fairly evaluate a fowl you need a common understanding of what it should look like and what characteristics it has.

I remember having a discussion with a judge while waiting at a show a couple of years ago and he was regaling his audience with tales of his judging prowess and describing how he judges a fowl if he has never read the Standard. Apparently you 'just know' when you look at a bird that it is a good one. It just comes to you. :huh?

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2015 2:23 pm 
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There lies our problem. People that know a certain colour for that particular breed hasn't been accepted in our standard but still bring them to shows. Judges just about need to carry the standards with them these days to work out what birds shouldn't be in a class. Maybe development classes and education will help to keep these birds in the right sections.

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