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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 11:27 am 
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Champion Bird
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Can anybody from the show scene indicate if pinioned birds are accepted for showing in QLD without it being considered as a fault.? I know calls and mallards are pinioned routinely (some compulsory) in other states and can still be shown (some will disqualify if they are not pinioned) . Is this the case with all duck breeds in QLD - specifically calls, east indies and muscovies ?

Danny

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 11:40 am 
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Fiesty Fowl
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have never seen a pinioned bird in the show pen
but have seen pinioned domestic birds in breeders flocks, but this appears to have only been done to improve the visual appearance of birds that have suffered angle wing
do you have pinioned domestics you wish to show Danny?

basically i can't anwser your question,, but my main concern would be ..has the owner pinioned to restict flight? or has it been done to remove visual colour faults in an otherwise perfect bird?

I'd send that question through to Jimmy Innes from SEQWA,,you should still have his email address, if he cant answer he should be able to send it through to the regulating body and get an answer for you


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 11:59 am 
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For ease of management, I pinion almost all ducks or geese that will be housed outdoors but particularly those that fly well or will hybridise with wild ducks if escaped (any mallard derivative breed should be pinioned if you have any respect for Pacific Black duck purity). I intend to be showing next season from birds bred this season as well as selling birds to potential show homes - I don't want to sell someone a bird that they may want to show but can't because it was pinioned. We are pinioning at 2 days old - feather faults and angel wing are non existent at this age. Removal of faults later are pretty obvious as the amputation scar is totally different to an early pinioning stump (I have done dozens of wing amputations and 100's of pinionings to compare with). The only birds that remain winged at my place are those that will only ever live in closed facilities such as mandarins and my albino woodies. I'll contact Jimmy and see what he has to say.
Thanks
Danny

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:05 pm 
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Fiesty Fowl
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DannyB wrote:
Removal of faults later are pretty obvious as the amputation scar is totally different to an early pinioning stump (I have done dozens of wing amputations and 100's of pinionings to compare with). Thanks
Danny



yes but does the judge on the day have the same knowledge to make that assesment?

must stick my head over your fence and have a look one day :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 2:18 pm 
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Very interesting fed here!.I don't think I have every seen a pinion wing.Has any one got a pic of one?

Here's a pic of me rouens I got from Jimmy,I got a 3rd at NEEPA on the weeked with the drake ,didn't show the duck she had some damaged feathers.

Image

Edited to add picture NellyG (Mod)[img[/img]

[img][img]http://gallery.backyardpoultry.com/watermark.php?file=66246[/img][/img]

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Last edited by New England Poultry on Wed Jul 25, 2012 3:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 3:12 pm 
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RnBs WATERFOWL wrote:
DannyB wrote:
Removal of faults later are pretty obvious as the amputation scar is totally different to an early pinioning stump (I have done dozens of wing amputations and 100's of pinionings to compare with). Thanks
Danny



yes but does the judge on the day have the same knowledge to make that assesment?



Probably not, but they should have.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 3:14 pm 
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New England Poultry wrote:
Very interesting fed here!.I don't think I have every seen a pinion wing.Has any one got a pic of one?

Here's a pic of me rouens I got from Jimmy,I got a 3rd at NEEPA on the weeked with the drake ,didn't show the duck she had some damaged feathers.

Image

Edited to add picture NellyG (Mod)

In a bird like a rouen with the primaries almost hidden you would not even noticed until you handled the bird and extended its wing. Not that a rouen would ever get off the ground enough to warrant pinioning in the first place.
This pic (bottom of the page if the direct link doesn't work) shows quite well the difference. Done properly the primaries are absent, the alula or bqastard wing projects out and protects the end of the wing. http://www.google.com.au/imgres?q=pinio ... s:46,i:307

In a late amputated bird, the stump is usually too large to be covered by the alula as the width of two bones had to be removed to achieve the surgery.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 3:56 pm 
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Hi DannyB

I think I know what you are saying.
The primaries feather is not flush behind the speculum feather with a duck thats had it's wing pinioned.Would that be right?

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:11 pm 
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The reply from the SEQWA is:
The rules toward pinioning are really set by the individual club or show organizer, but it is usually only enforced if the judge on the day chooses to do so. This issue came up a while back when lots of mallards were being shown, and the general consensus was that it is no problem. It hasn't been talked about much in the last 10 years or so, but I think it is still widely accepted in bantam breeds. I'm not sure it would be accepted in muscovies, but if a Muscovy can fly it is too small to show anyway.

I don't agree with the last bit but it answered my question.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:12 pm 
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New England Poultry wrote:
Hi DannyB

I think I know what you are saying.
The primaries feather is not flush behind the speculum feather with a duck thats had it's wing pinioned.Would that be right?

The primaries are completely absent - all you will see is secondaries.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:14 pm 
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can you do this with chickens also?


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:36 pm 
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Hermetic_Eggs wrote:
can you do this with chickens also?

Yes, We often do it in quail and pheasants - must be in the first 1-2 days with chickens as their wings develop so fast. Its not quite as effective in chooks as the big broad wings still supply lift to some degree. It's one of those techniques that some frown upon but it isn't illegal. Its a damn sight easier than chasing a bird around the yard once a year trying to trap it before it flies off.

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Last edited by DannyB on Wed Jul 25, 2012 9:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:39 pm 
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ive got some chicks hatching in 9 days and id like to give it a go with some of the lighter breeds. what tool do you use, do you need to prep them in anyway and how do you do it?

i know i could find the info online, but would like to hear from someone who's actually doing it and knows what they are doing.

cheers :thumbs:


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 9:16 pm 
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Its hard to find a good reference but this one is quite good although the pic is a little hard to see. http://www.ducksworld.com/?page_id=104
Key points - very sharp scissors, do it very young=no blood, get the scissor tip under the little thumb - not in front, not behind, one wing only.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:01 pm 
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thats a good read, thanks.

It states that you should pinion ducks on day 12 before the wings start to grow.

Do you know the right time to do chickens?

As for the ducklings what happens if you do them before day 12?


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