Backyard Poultry Forum • View topic - Muscovies Type vs size?

Backyard Poultry Forum

Chickens, waterfowl & all poultry - home of exhibition & backyard poultry in Australia & New Zealand
Login with a social network:
It is currently Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:26 pm

All times are UTC + 10 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 75 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Muscovies Type vs size?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 5:21 am 
Offline
Old Mother Goose
Old Mother Goose
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 11:15 pm
Posts: 5577
Location: St georges basin (NOWRA) nsw
There was a thread similar a while ago but with the Sydney royal comming up I want to get some opinions.

Based on what you have seen at shows are some judges just going for the biggest in both sexes and in males the biggest and most overdone heads?

Possibly over smaller birds of better or just as good type?

I am leaving colour out of this, just going on size and type.

Are some of the muscovies winning at shows too big and overdone?

The muscovy is a breed that should be able to perch, fly and mate without AI.

But being also a popular meat breed do you think some judges are basing their results on the meat type bird or the traditional wild type bird?

Because if you look at the difference between the giant mammoths and the wild type muscovy.......

I have a white pair I wouldnt quite call mammoth but they cannot fly or perch and they are no where as big as some I have seen win at shows.

And I have 3 smaller wild types that can fly short distances, perch if they want to and are quite fit and agile. They still have the low keel and body type but the difference is quite obvious.

All muscovies are purebred but the differences are quite incredible between different sizes and shapes. Are some breeders breeding huge mammoths because they win and the meat buyers go for the big ones? Or do they just like them better?

I had an enormous white drake who could barely walk he was so huge and he ended up collapsing dead on a hot day. He was getting beaten by bigger birds still.

It just has me wondering where I am going with my own birds. I prefer the smaller fitter type but they seem to be overlooked.

Opinions please.

_________________
MY WEBSITE http://shambhala-birds.webs.com


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 8:37 am 
Offline
Wise Wyandotte
Wise Wyandotte
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2006 1:59 pm
Posts: 4069
Location: Victoria
I think the thread you are looking for is Muscovy Size Discussion - I has a lot of the answers to your questions.

No matter what the breed - type should take precedence over size/colour etc. Whether it be a smaller bird with better type or a large bird with good type. I feel if there is a larger bird with the same type of the smaller bird, i would go for the larger one. But if the smaller bird has better type...

Honk

_________________
If you can keep chooks, geese will be a BREEZE!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 11:58 am 
Offline
Showy Hen
Showy Hen
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2008 12:39 pm
Posts: 219
I agree with Honk.

If the bird has type and is in proportion throughout the body it is a winner,if it displays no type then its really not keeping up with the standard.

Danny :biggrin:

_________________
Hon Sec of: NSW WATERFOWL BREEDERS ASSOCIATION INC


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 2:49 pm 
Offline
Wise One
Wise One

Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2008 9:36 pm
Posts: 2721
Type of course is paramount as with all breeds :P , although realistically, size will probably influence some :mrgreen: . But what type? - that according to the standards, that according to the judge, that according to the breeder :?: . Differences in interpretation and individual ideals occur :wink: Still, if you follow to the best of your ability, that as set out in the standard, you should have a sound basis for producing and showing birds that adhere closely to what is required, and will/can be judged accordingly :P

Regardless of size, a well cared for, healthy, beautifully feathered bird will often stand out from the crowd :P

rollyard :)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 3:23 pm 
forget what is the Standard, correct type, even marking, even colour, correct leg colour, all that.

Not many judge know how to judge a Muscovy, they maybe a Waterfowl judge and can work which is the best Call Duck, but when it comes to Muscovies, they forget to look at the Standard and how to judge any bird.

If it is the biggest bird there it is the Champion Muscovy and that is it, it does not go on the put up against the other waterfowl to become Champion Waterfowl and beyond.

It could have uneven colour or marking, unrecognised colour, so overweight that it can not walk and of course it will be a male, only because males are bigger than females.

I have been to shows where I have had a pure bronze drake and duck (fully grown), not a white feather on it, show prepared and all and it does not get a place. Beaten by 4 month old white drakes and ducks, no cruncles, black patches on legs.

This is the reason I do not exhibit my good Muscovies at Ag shows and some Club shows, it is not worth the effect or stress on the birds. Each Muscovy in my flock will only be exhibited at 1 Ag show a year, and they go to show the public what a Muscovy looks like, not to win.

So after I have said all this, I will NOT change the way I breed my ducks:

1st Type
2nd Colour
3rd do they look after themself
and sorry to say now size, before I did not care, but now I have to.


Top
  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 5:32 pm 
Offline
Champion Bird
Champion Bird
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2009 7:20 pm
Posts: 922
Broken Bird wrote:
forget what is the Standard, correct type, even marking, even colour, correct leg colour, all that.

Not many judge know how to judge a Muscovy, they maybe a Waterfowl judge and can work which is the best Call Duck, but when it comes to Muscovies, they forget to look at the Standard and how to judge any bird.

If it is the biggest bird there it is the Champion Muscovy and that is it, it does not go on the put up against the other waterfowl to become Champion Waterfowl and beyond.

It could have uneven colour or marking, unrecognised colour, so overweight that it can not walk and of course it will be a male, only because males are bigger than females.

I have been to shows where I have had a pure bronze drake and duck (fully grown), not a white feather on it, show prepared and all and it does not get a place. Beaten by 4 month old white drakes and ducks, no cruncles, black patches on legs.

This is the reason I do not exhibit my good Muscovies at Ag shows and some Club shows, it is not worth the effect or stress on the birds. Each Muscovy in my flock will only be exhibited at 1 Ag show a year, and they go to show the public what a Muscovy looks like, not to win.

So after I have said all this, I will NOT change the way I breed my ducks:

1st Type
2nd Colour
3rd do they look after themself
and sorry to say now size, before I did not care, but now I have to.


I agree with you BB,
a bird with nice type and correct color looks better to me than a fat male of any type or color, just my opinion, and what the judge decides is better will also be his opinion but you should breed mussies to how you like them not trying to please a judge

Regards David

_________________
Bantam Saxony
Lavender Muscovy


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:30 pm 
Offline
Old Mother Goose
Old Mother Goose
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 11:15 pm
Posts: 5577
Location: St georges basin (NOWRA) nsw
I aggree with you Broken Bird it is what I see a lot too. I wonder how many of the judges that pick the biggest actually breed muscovies? Because if they did they might realise that bigger does not make them better.

I aggree if it is in proportion for its size and carries it's large body on a large frame and is healthy, can walk, run, fly etc and breed and not drag half it's belly in the mud then good. Good work to the breeder. But how many mammoths can fly to a perch?

But when I say the big ones go up few if none of them seem to meet that. They are I am sorry to say looking like they have been fed a diet of big macs their whole life. The drake I had was on a diet no different to any other I have and he still ballooned out and got to a point where he could hardly walk. I put him on a diet but it was his genes. He was off champion lines. It just isn't the way nature designed them.

It made me look at muscovies differently. It made me question wether we are doing the right thing by the breed to only breed what will impress a judge? Mammoths look impressive in a show pen but it's at home in the yard and the breeding pen that matters.

No offence Danny I wasn't meaning you, but I see it happen at shows.

_________________
MY WEBSITE http://shambhala-birds.webs.com


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:57 pm 
chookster wrote:
But how many mammoths can fly to a perch?


there two trains of thoughts here:

1 - it should act and look like the birds in the wild and be able to fly and perch - but why, there are only three birds in the Standard that have a same species in the wild, Muscovy, Jungle Fowl and Araucana, and the Muscovy was domesticated in the 1560s

2 – when domesticated the Muscovy was for meat and egg production, so big is best – but why, some huge birds are just plain fat, a huge body and a small head and feet, they can not walk let alone fly, is it good for the birds health.

I breed mammoths that are genetically big, big thick legs, big head and neck and carry there weight. Some breed big birds and over feed them.

chookster wrote:
No offence Danny I wasn't meaning you, but I see it happen at shows.


Not defending Danny (I am sure he can do that by himself), but I find it is the older judges. If the show is a Ag show, most of these judges do not consider any waterfowl as poultry and are only judged because they have to. If a Club show, the waterfowl judge do not consider Muscovies a duck, and again only judge them because they have to.

Whereas specialty shows have judges (should have) that take judging seriously. Only once I attended one of these shows and the judge did not even open the cage door, let alone touch the Muscovies. It also happened to be the time some Queensland Muscovies were in Victoria, so of course they won.

It has been mentioned in another thread that the Queenslanders are coming again to Victoria, I can only hope they do not win, just because they were the biggest birds there. There is a lot more to a Muscovy than it size.

Back to Danny, I have found him a fair judge of birds and would not have any problems at all if he judged my birds as not good enough on the day. He is from the new breed of judges, we need more of them.


Top
  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 11:08 pm 
Offline
Old Mother Goose
Old Mother Goose
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 11:15 pm
Posts: 5577
Location: St georges basin (NOWRA) nsw
Yeah seems to be the grumpy old men in white coats lol.

I look forward to seeing your birds BB. I would love your opinion on mine also. I like them though even if noone else does :mrgreen:

_________________
MY WEBSITE http://shambhala-birds.webs.com


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 11:32 pm 
Offline
Showy Hen
Showy Hen
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2008 12:39 pm
Posts: 219
i agree with what is stated in above.

Im not a fan of overwieght muscovys either-not a healthy thing nor is it natural.

Good on ya guys.

Danny

_________________
Hon Sec of: NSW WATERFOWL BREEDERS ASSOCIATION INC


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 1:42 am 
Offline
Phoenix
Phoenix
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 10:32 pm
Posts: 9087
Location: In Transit
Well I will like them also chookster as they are probably similiar to mine .
I like mine always room for improvement but love the opportunity to show the general public what is available in waterfowl .
Waterfowl is not a large component of any show and it is up to us all to make sure it is not lost in the shows in the future.
Have got over judges likes or dislikes about my birds they will have no option but to look in the future.They see them often enough :lol: :lol:
The more they see the more they understand. I suppose I do my small bit at educating the judges as well.
Who knows this may work one day. :)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 2:53 am 
Offline
Old Mother Goose
Old Mother Goose
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 11:15 pm
Posts: 5577
Location: St georges basin (NOWRA) nsw
Maybe we can stand in protest with signs 'fair go for midgets' :mrgreen:

_________________
MY WEBSITE http://shambhala-birds.webs.com


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 3:32 pm 
Offline
Prime Pekin
Prime Pekin
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2005 8:45 pm
Posts: 3357
Location: the riverina, southern nsw
mammoths are a good thing , ?

how many years have breeders from qld bred top birds ?

thay win a lot of top awards with there birds dont thay ?

some say thay cant perch cant fly , some strains of mammoth go back 90 odd years ,?


normals are great , a top show normal at a show is great,

but a lot or normal birds are a long way behind the qld bred birds ?

and also , who here if thay had the chance wouldnt have a big mammoth drake to breed with your birds ?

if 2 birds are at a show, both with good type , what bird would you pick ?

and its the plain truth judges always pick a mammoth out before a smaller bird ,?

i have been told a few times , when i had the normal bronzes thay were a waste of time ?
get some mammoth birds , or im wasting my time


jase

_________________
muscovys rule


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 3:42 pm 
Offline
Great Game
Great Game

Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2008 12:45 pm
Posts: 1331
Location: Roseworthy, SA
Broken Bird wrote:
chookster wrote:
But how many mammoths can fly to a perch?


there two trains of thoughts here:

1 - it should act and look like the birds in the wild and be able to fly and perch - but why, there are only three birds in the Standard that have a same species in the wild, Muscovy, Jungle Fowl and Araucana, and the Muscovy was domesticated in the 1560s




Erm, you forgot that other waterfowl species, the Mallard. And, now we're on the Mallard - what are they bred for? Ornamental? If we already have a wild species being bred for ornamental (actually, that's a different kettle of fish - don't get me started on Mallards), why can't we have another? What about Muscovies? Mallards can fly, Mallards can perch - imagine the look of horror if they came out with a Mallard the size of a Muscovy?

And also, Muscovies aren't the only waterfowl going this way. It is starting (I've noticed here in SA at least) to happen with Pekins. The Pekins are getting bigger, winning more (and beating my poor Muscovies who don't get a look in!), but at the same time they are losing their "graceful curves" that a Pekin is meant to have. So we're not alone - the problems sadly seem to be getting WORSE, not better.

And I am an educator of judges for Muscovies - so many times I have corrected the judges while talking after a show. I'm SLOWLY making an impact here - Graeme even looks at the Muscovy standard now before he judges. He never really thought of Muscovies as havign a really strong "type", but I'm slowly getting there!

At the same time, there are good judges. For instance, Adrian Burgess, the judge who will be going to the Vic wet chook show, actually gets the birds out, looks at them, colour, type, AND size, and weighs them all up. But you know what's the worst? These judges are often looked down upon by other poultry people, for actually JUDGING waterfowl rather than just pointing at a winner. How many times have we all seen the hard feather judge (or any of them) simply sneer in the direction of the waterfowl? And when asked to judge waterfowl, won't even really LOOK at them?

I've heard others, such as stewards say "Oh my god, how embarassing - fancy having to tell people that the champion waterfowl was a KHAKI." Like, so ruddy what? Who cares what colour it was? Just because it's not your favourite breed or colour.

Does anyone else find the same? Us wet chook people are expected to listen, care, and know about every breed of dry chook there is, but all too often the purely dry chook people (people who don't have wet chooks) just sneer at us?



And Jase - I have been told the same, many many times. get some decent birds. You're not going to get anywhere with the birds you cave currently. But guess what? Although mine are hardly mammoths next to Rollyards, they ARE "big", and you know what else? I used MY birds to get them.

_________________
Wackycardia...a peculiar condition causing the heart to beat faster when a Muscovy (a Wack, not a Quack) is seen. Derived from the term tachycardia.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 4:22 pm 
Offline
Fiesty Fowl
Fiesty Fowl

Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2008 12:05 am
Posts: 1141
Location: Melbourne
Jase, remember the judge is not always right, we should not just go out and get what we think is going to please the judge- otherwise we would all be breeding Indian Runners, (quote post in other thread).

I have bit my tongue once today in the VWA thread but I don't agree that anyone should change their preference/ passion just because it is going to win. Surely their is much more satisfaction in starting off with a good bird and selectively breeding it to produce fantastic birds rather than buying someone elses hard work? Remember Jase- no one is having a go at you, just expressing a different opinion.

_________________
Bronze Muscovies. Cinnamon Guineafowl. Pilgrim Geese


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 75 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

All times are UTC + 10 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
©2004-2014 Backyardpoultry.com. Content rights reserved
freestone