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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 9:01 am 
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Champion Bird
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Thought i'd post this thread for educational purposes. Feel free to post your thoughts on what you see happening, and why?? :think:

Here's the breeding group of Rouen Clair
Image
all looking true to type for a Rouen Clair (light phase Mallard/trout). The drake and duck in the foreground are the original pair (legbands) the other 2 being the product of this mating.

And here are the duckling just hatched. For a couple of reasons, I was expecting some variation in what was to hatch - i'll explain why later - but this group certainly took me by surprise.. :shoc The first out was this
Image
and the following 3 turned out like this :shoc :aaah! :think: :shoc
Image
Image

Sooooo.. What's going on exactly? RnBs WATERFOWL saw some preliminary pics last night so we've already had a discussion about what he sees having occurred. Rollyard, I'll be interested to hear your thoughts :thumbs:

For those learning about genetic inheritances though, put your thinking caps on! Enjoy
:feed

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Last edited by koljash on Fri Oct 10, 2014 8:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 9:11 am 
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Fiesty Fowl
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more detail on in these pics than on the phone..
first pic of the breeders? when was that taken??
i'm not convinced the 1st one hatched is a true wild type.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 9:13 am 
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Both parant birds have a splice dark phase gene in them.So f2 I gess you will get some ducklings that have dark phase down in them.??

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 9:16 am 
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And nice bill lenth in them rouen clairs :thumbs: :thumbs: :thumbs:

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 9:18 am 
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Champion Bird
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RnBs WATERFOWL wrote:
more detail on in these pics than on the phone..
first pic of the breeders? when was that taken??
i'm not convinced the 1st one hatched is a true wild type.

Late August, day after arrival. As you know, there's recessive white in the mix, manifesting in the drake. That may also influence, especially in a father/daughter mating?

New England Poultry wrote:
Both parant birds have a splice dark phase gene in them.So f2 I gess you will get some ducklings that have dark phase down in them.?

There's certainly something hiding underneath NEP, but is it dark phase?? I'd expect there to be eyelines present if so.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 9:24 am 
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New England Poultry wrote:
Both parant birds have a splice dark phase gene in them.So f2 I gess you will get some ducklings that have dark phase down in them.?


I'm not sure about this NEP.. dark phase is dominate,,but all females in the 1st pic appear to be in light phase colour and marking. if the females were split dark/light i'd expect them to be closer to rouen colour and markings


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 9:39 am 
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Parents are hiding a Dusky gene. That's my guess.

And white wing tips!! (also thought to be recessive).

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 9:42 am 
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A bit more about the drake - it's apparent that he has had a white bird in his makeup; he has 5-6 white primaries on both wings, white toenails and a neck ring which is a little unusual when viewed side on. The very yellow wing tip on the little fella in last pic, and the parti-colour legs/feet suggest some other genetic influence too... Perhaps introduced by the white bird

A good example on the hazards of using a whit bird such as a Pekin, to increase size.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 9:43 am 
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just popping these guys in for some comparison..no blue,1 blue and double blue.
dilution genes dont change the pattern, they just change the colour. your 1st duckling to hatch isnt a match for these three or the correctly marked ones here
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=8026442
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 9:47 am 
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koljash wrote:
A bit more about the drake - it's apparent that he has had a white bird in his makeup; he has 5-6 white primaries on both wings, white toenails and a neck ring which is a little unusual when viewed side on. The very yellow wing tip on the little fella in last pic, and the parti-colour legs/feet suggest some other genetic influence too... Perhaps introduced by the white bird

A good example on the hazards of using a whit bird such as a Pekin, to increase size.


The white wing tips are not from a white bird. They're a gene all of their own, but only desirable in Blue Swedish and Dutch Hookbills. No relation to recessive white (epistatic white) that causes the whole bird to be white in a double dose.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 9:55 am 
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Champion Bird
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Quote:
A good example on the hazards of using a whit bird such as a Pekin, to increase size.


I'm not a colour duck breeder and don't have a colour gene book, so don't shot me :rofl:

But in sted of using a Pikin for size can you get away with a Khaki Campbell ducks x Rouen for size and then breed back the colour??

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 10:00 am 
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70%cocoa wrote:
The white wing tips are not from a white bird. They're a gene all of their own, but only desirable in Blue Swedish and Dutch Hookbills. No relation to recessive white (epistatic white) that causes the whole bird to be white in a double dose.


Sorry Rach, what I was getting at was that a white bird such as a Pekin can carry any number of genetics (under the epistatic white). It's been documented that a Saxony crossed to a Pekin drake to test for recessive white in the Saxony revealed birds which were pretty much spot on for Blue Swedish. The Pekin carried those genes under the white. It has also been thought that under the white, Pekins carried light phase or restricted genes... Certainly the pekin Elizabeth cross I bred last year resulted in the bird appearing as Appleyard in markings, but with white primaries, white toenails, and a dark bill!.

edited to add: I've also seen several Rouen/Pekin crosses where the birds appear dark phase mallard (as you'd expect with one dose of white), yet have 2 white primaries on each wing.


So this drake (pictured side on below) could potentially have genes related to Swedish inherited from the white bird - does that make more sense??

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Last edited by koljash on Sat Oct 12, 2013 10:22 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 10:04 am 
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New England Poultry wrote:

can you get away with a Khaki Campbell ducks


been there, done that, still dealing with the consequences. best to avoid the medium/light breeds when trying to create a heavy breed


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 10:10 am 
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Champion Bird
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RnBs WATERFOWL wrote:
New England Poultry wrote:

can you get away with a Khaki Campbell ducks


been there, done that, still dealing with the consequences. best to avoid the medium/light breeds when trying to create a heavy breed


you'd be introducing both dark phase and dusky genes by doing that NEP. Given that 3 ducklings have no indication of eye lines, it would appear that dusky gene is already present, as suggested by 70%Cocoa

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 10:47 am 
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koljash wrote:
70%cocoa wrote:
The white wing tips are not from a white bird. They're a gene all of their own


Sorry Rach, what I was getting at was that a white bird such as a Pekin can carry any number of genetics (under the epistatic white).


:thumbs: Gotcha :). And you're exactly right that therein lies the danger of crossing to white birds to increase size. Never a good idea, IMO, for exactly this reason.

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