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 Post subject: Re: Black Crested Ducks
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 6:25 pm 
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Showy Hen
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I finally got around to taking some photo's of her. I thought I would start with some pictures of the parents so you can see how things have come along.
This is her mother
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This is the father. I don't have any good photo's of him and he now lives elsewhere
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 Post subject: Re: Black Crested Ducks
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 6:32 pm 
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Showy Hen
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Now this is her. She is far from perfect but is a step in the right direction.
Body shot
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This is a comparison to a Cayuga. She is on the left and the Cayuga is on the right
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this is the chest and she only has one white feather
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Sorry for all the photo's but I wanted to be able to show all area's. She is in a moult at the moment so she looks a bit shabby.

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 Post subject: Re: Black Crested Ducks
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 8:08 pm 
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Golden Kingfisher
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She is almost the spitting image of two Campbell x Black Swedish females I once had. Same dark colour, and pattern on and underneath the wing. One had a little bib too.

Looking at her you'd wonder if the father was actually homozygous for Extended Black, as she isn't pure black. The alternative is that one dose of Extended Black is actually not enough to render a bird totally black (which in theory it should be).

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 Post subject: Re: Black Crested Ducks
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2015 9:56 am 
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Showy Hen
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I would have thought that a Swedish cross would have had a largish Bib. I don't know if the father was extended black but he wasn't a great drake colour wise. I will put her back to a Cayuga and try to get the all black colour this season.

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 Post subject: Re: Black Crested Ducks
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2015 10:07 am 
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Wise One
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She sort of appears like a very dark (or poorly laced), dark dusky, in some photos doesn't she. Possibilities include one dose of E, or, some other black enhancer/s carried by the black drake.

Very good quality for colour black ducks likely have accumulated other black enhancing factors (besides E) over time through selection which contribute towards the optimal black bird. Sort of like extended black based chickens; E alone doesn't make a quality black bird. The right base would help. I tend to think your young duck has one dose of extended black. Either way you are on your way to producing black crested ducks, so good for you Jarvispryor.

If it were my project, I would be on the lookout for the best quality for type (crested ducks) & colour black drake I could find. Preferably one bred from a consistent black breeding line (it should be pure for extended black, & may potentially contribute other favorable factors). A good quality Cayuga drake as you intend is an obvious choice & a reasonable way to go.

Lots of helpful photos.


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 Post subject: Re: Black Crested Ducks
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2015 10:44 am 
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Showy Hen
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Thanks Rollyard,
I have some good whites from a very good breeder so I plan to cross out to them to help improve type when I have the black colour set. I have a young Cayuga drake that is seen in the photo that I am growing out. There are a few breeders of quality Cayuga's within a few hours of me so I will get onto them and try and organise a good drake.

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 Post subject: Re: Black Crested Ducks
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:02 pm 
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Golden Kingfisher
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jarvispryor wrote:
I would have thought that a Swedish cross would have had a largish Bib.


Not necessarily. Bibs can be extremely small. Although most people have a problem with bibs being too large and messy I think. Basically, there is huge variation.

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 Post subject: Re: Black Crested Ducks
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2015 10:59 pm 
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Fiesty Fowl
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jarvispryor wrote:
I have some good whites from a very good breeder so I plan to cross out to them to help improve type when I have the black colour set. .

i'd avoid putting recessive white into a black breed,,but each to their own
jarvispryor wrote:
I have a young Cayuga drake that is seen in the photo that I am growing out. .

maybe its the photo/lighting but your drake looks to be showing a fair amount of lacing,likely similar effect to the blurry pic of the adult cayuga.
the cayugas we raised for a year or two were solid beetle green with solid black legs and bills, and a drake now 6 has only just decided to show a couple of white feathers.
some strains get white earlier, but this is a feature of the breed as they age,,adding the white gene could dramatically increase when and how much white, and it would be devastating in yearling birds.
white is the only total masking gene,,homo black like the rest of the colours is influenced by the genes that come before and after it.

rollyard wrote:

If it were my project, I would be on the lookout for the best quality for type (crested ducks) & colour black drake I could find. Preferably one bred from a consistent black breeding line (it should be pure for extended black, & may potentially contribute other favorable factors).
totally agree :morebow

rollyard wrote:
She sort of appears like a very dark (or poorly laced), dark dusky, in some photos doesn't she.

.
yes indeed,,maybe homo for md, getting one dose from dad and maybe hinting at whats assisting the poor black appearance of the father bird

rollyard wrote:
; E alone doesn't make a quality black bird. The right base would help. .

I think dark phase wild type is a better base ;-)
md Li+ seems like a good idea,,but md seems to cause problems everywhere it's not meant to be


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 Post subject: Re: Black Crested Ducks
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 10:48 am 
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Wise One
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RnBs WATERFOWL wrote:
yes indeed,,maybe homo for md, getting one dose from dad and maybe hinting at whats assisting the poor black appearance of the father bird

Perhaps? Poor quality black could be related to something else too though.

RnBs WATERFOWL wrote:
I think dark phase wild type is a better base ;-)
md Li+ seems like a good idea,,but md seems to cause problems everywhere it's not meant to be

You may be right. I'm certainly not in a position to argue (in a positive way) the best base for a black bird having never bred/tested them. It could well be. For example, if E completely epistatic to M+ pattern/colour (eg claret bib, white markings) then it shouldn't matter should it.

Holderread (Storey's Guide to Raising Ducks, Dave Holderread, 2011, p. 135) says of black duck plumage;
Quote:
"In solid black breeds, Cayugas and East Indies have the most perfected black plumage, with the best specimens having spectacular green iridescence. The plumage pattern and colour genotype includes at least two non wild type alleles -- recessive dusky and incompletely dominant extended black: Patd Patd, EE EE (m^d/m^d, E/E). Some blacks I have tested also carry dominant sooty, SoSo SoSo".


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 Post subject: Re: Black Crested Ducks
PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 9:31 am 
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Fiesty Fowl
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i'm not the type to just believe things because someone took the time to compile a book.. Holderread stands alone with ideas past the very basic theory.

and while there are a number of people here on BYP with the knowledge to test breed and confirm his ideas, i dont know if any of them have the time or $ to waste just to do so.
hence i dont quote him unless i've seen the outcome myself.

i've seen great blacks built of an M+/Li+ base with very little lacing effect on the first cross and good consistent black plumage ,,then again the breeders used where of an extremely high standard.

with the amount of pigmentation and detail under the wing i'll back the bird as being homo md
and those terrible looking things called W'vales that are claimed to have come from cayugas look to be of an md base also.
then maybe H'read is right and md is the best base,,if so what's gone wrong here with this programe?? missing the suggested "So"

lets say the sooty gene is missing,,which breed/colour would you use to get it,,and how/what would you cross to prove it was there before doing so.?
does Mr H'read give any illustrated evidence of the difference between a homo md/E bird and a homo md/E/So bird


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 Post subject: Re: Black Crested Ducks
PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 8:47 am 
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Wise One
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RnBs WATERFOWL wrote:
i'm not the type to just believe things because someone took the time to compile a book.. Holderread stands alone with ideas past the very basic theory.

Fair enough. For what it is worth I think it is healthy to challenge others ideas, in an appropriate way (I am guilty of not doing that). One of the things I enjoyed so much when mixing the genetics of my ducks was learning for myself some of what others have long quoted. Otherwise it wasn't concrete enough for me, or I couldn't be sure. Having said that, I do tend to place some weight on that said by someone who has been breeding/testing ducks for some decades in a book that provides accurate information (as far as I can tell) in an intelligent, researched, & well set out manner.

RnBs WATERFOWL wrote:
i've seen great blacks built of an M+/Li+ base with very little lacing effect on the first cross and good consistent black plumage ,,then again the breeders used where of an extremely high standard.

Yes, it could be that two doses of E completely epistatic to the effects of all that come before it. I have found confusing sometimes E' state of effect. For example, Lancaster (Poultry Breeding & Genetics, Editor R. D. Crawford, 1990, pp. 383-384) says of extended black;
Quote:
"When homozygous the recessive gene e+ allows full expression of the wild-type. In contrast E causes solid black pigment to be laid down in all areas except those effected by genes for white spotting and is completely epistatic to all genes at the M and Li loci."

In contrast, Holderread comment "incompletely dominant extended black" doesn't support the above, ie, incompletely dominant. I suspect Lancaster is talking in two doses of E, while Holderread one. Jarvis duck, if it has one dose of black (I think so), would be in congruence with Holderreads findings in relation to m^d @ least , all else being equal.


RnBs WATERFOWL wrote:
and those terrible looking things called W'vales that are claimed to have come from cayugas look to be of an md base also.

I had not considered those Watervale, but, if they are m^d based & bred out of black Cayuga (some would have to be het for E as I see it) then that would provide an example of dusky based (? pure) black Cayuga wouldn't it. Wonder what quality their black plumage?

RnBs WATERFOWL wrote:
then maybe H'read is right and md is the best base,,if so what's gone wrong here with this programe?? missing the suggested "So"

We haven't yet seen progeny produced from this program homozygous for black. Breeding back to any drakes like she was bred from wouldn't be the way to go as I see it if the quality not in them, but breeding the crested dark dusky to very good sheened quality for black should introduce desirable factors, be that better base pattern, other black enhancing factors, or whatever. The idea being to introduce the crested gene into good black plumaged birds. Hopefully crested duck type can be achieved along the way.

RnBs WATERFOWL wrote:
lets say the sooty gene is missing,,which breed/colour would you use to get it,,and how/what would you cross to prove it was there before doing so.?
does Mr H'read give any illustrated evidence of the difference between a homo md/E bird and a homo md/E/So bird

Although Holderread has said that some of the blacks he has tested have had sooty while others haven't, he hasn't mentioned (from a quick skim) whether/which one produced a better black or not.

I wouldn't bother trying to isolate sooty, because it alone may not be the crucial ingredient for making a quality black bird. I would do what Jarvis intends doing & use the best quality blacks I could find to introduce the crested gene into. Comparatively straight forward when compared to a potentially nonproductive & expensive witch-hunt.


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 Post subject: Re: Black Crested Ducks
PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 7:23 pm 
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Fiesty Fowl
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rollyard wrote:
.

RnBs WATERFOWL wrote:
lets say the sooty gene is missing,,which breed/colour would you use to get it,,and how/what would you cross to prove it was there before doing so.?
does Mr H'read give any illustrated evidence of the difference between a homo md/E bird and a homo md/E/So bird

Although Holderread has said that some of the blacks he has tested have had sooty while others haven't, he hasn't mentioned (from a quick skim) whether/which one produced a better black or not.

I wouldn't bother trying to isolate sooty, because it alone may not be the crucial ingredient for making a quality black bird. I would do what Jarvis intends doing & use the best quality blacks I could find to introduce the crested gene into. Comparatively straight forward when compared to a potentially nonproductive & expensive witch-hunt.


Ross i dont feel you've answered my question you've quoted,, and i'm not suggesting someone should go looking for the suggested Sooty gene....we're fully aware of the costs involved and time in doing so.
given your answer i thought the question was comparatively straight forward.
i was trying to simulate discussion and thought on where this gene is, how to identify it and how to use it and its effects on the other genes around it if a breeder wished to do so.


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 Post subject: Re: Black Crested Ducks
PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 12:34 am 
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Wise One
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I answered your question the way I did for a reason. That is my prerogative. If it isn't exactly to your expectation or requirement, well, I can live with that.


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 Post subject: Re: Black Crested Ducks
PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 6:49 am 
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As a person with black birds I'm very interested in all this. In my experience you can still get brown speckling or brown patches even on birds that should be homozygous for E. There is definitely more going on than E.

Don't think Holderread elaborates much on Sooty, tbh. I expect that Sooty is a minor player in this and it's more about E interacting with something else entirely. But I don't have a clue as to what.

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 Post subject: Re: Black Crested Ducks
PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 8:28 pm 
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Fiesty Fowl
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rollyard wrote:
I answered your question .
no you didnt :dedhrs

but if that's all you've got we'll just have to read between the lines ;-)

Jarvis,,good luck,,i hope you stick with it and put a few years in


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