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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 10:39 pm 
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Junior Champion Bird
Junior Champion Bird

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Location: North Coast NSW
on the asil
please remeber in the centuries when these things were done there were no 'fancy" breeds with" this or that peculiarity to cross with"as presentday fanciers do. Do you realise how wonderfuly this breed is adapted to the combat of endurance as no other game breed is,from the skin of his face like tough leather,to his broad strong toenails? No point necessary to his trade has been neglected,muscle has been developed to the maximum,all useless weight, intestines,belly, and such-like reduced to the minimum.In its way the english game cock is a triumph of breeding,but the indian"goes one better,"for we still retain comb and wattles as large as ever,and centuries of dubbing have been rendered necessary,yet it is still there and will remain with the pure breed for ever.


Last edited by Pearl Eye on Thu Jun 09, 2011 10:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Atkinson quotes
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 10:55 pm 
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Junior Champion Bird
Junior Champion Bird

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fascinating as exhibitions of birds and animals are,everyone must sorrowfully admit the many breeds of animals and birds that the shows have altered from most useful servants to useless impostors. Can the long-backed show spaniel work in rough cover all day,or is the the show fox terrier the best dog to go to ground to fox and badger,as is his trade! Can the show Hackney stand battering day after day,on long journeys,as a hackney was required to do. Is the shire horse with immense carcase,soft bone,and hairy legs,as useful as the Percheron! ! The modern game cock cannot fight, and the show Homing Pidgeon cannot fly. Is this the end of all the time and care,thought and money, spent on show animals!
Animals and birds bred for centuries for certain work with care and selection,adapt themselves to that work,but a few generations bred without that work,or without adequate trails,they must deteriorate,but how much more so when bred solely to win prizes, and useless show points, incompatible with utility, are sought for and introduced from extensive experience and breeding in India


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 Post subject: Re: Atkinson quotes
PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2011 9:09 am 
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Gallant Game
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This is great reference material pearleye; when I commenced with fowls and first read these quotations around 30 years ago now; I knew something had gone amiss!

Many great writers and authors where fearful of the result of standardisation! Don't be fooled it's not only exhibition poultry that has suffered; I've collected material on poultry, pigeons & caged birds and the same standardisation has occurred with them! Even personal letters and material from great fanciers such a Atkinson contain views such as this; they weren't just saying this to upset the next generation it can be seen as a warning these were distributing changes they witnessed and did not wish these to be reflected again in the future!

Unfortunately showing has nearly eliminated varietal difference within breeds and may continue to do so! Breeds have been and continue to be standardised black must be black and white must be white! Reluctance to accept these differences; will continue to be the greatest threat to poultry over the next generation! With the elimination of varietal difference fads and trends will continue to be the norm! Many of us as breeders, exhibitors, fanciers and judges are guilty of these changes; yes change is always inevitable but is it occurring at a greater speed than previously seen? And now to the demise of genitic variation?

Fowls will be with us in 25, 50 & 75 years time but where will they be at and what will be the end result of standardisation?


Last edited by pedro73 on Fri May 20, 2011 2:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Atkinson quotes
PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2011 9:24 pm 
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Junior Champion Bird
Junior Champion Bird

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i'll keep posting bits from cockfighting and gamefowl so we can learn from the 100s of pages atkinson has written and collected, and not from his art on its own.

it may be asked by some, now accustomed to the type that wins at shows in this country,how has the Asil been destroyed? My reply is:
1. By crossing with importation that were far removed from the asil breed
2. By exaggerating certain points.
3. By introducing new points that are incomparable with an asil fighting cock.


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 Post subject: Re: Atkinson quotes
PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2011 9:46 pm 
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Junior Champion Bird
Junior Champion Bird

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Location: North Coast NSW
richard stamp born 1798

the cocks should have good strong bill with a little turn for keep hold with,a strong head and neck,neck long,a bright red eye,good strong shoulders and wing,and strong leg. Prefer a flattish bone for strength according to weight. Should have good feet and particularly good back heels for the purpose of keeping himself steady, and should not be to long in back,in order that he may be quick at striking. I always fancied a flat back bird and never preferred one that was narrow and ridged in the back. I always found that a bird which was narrow struck to much around and not direct from the shoulder,and in many cases flung himself into a bad position by striking around. In all cases a bird which was hurt in the hock struck that way. The tail should not be too high for the purpose of working to the same direction as the back heels. Yellow legs and beak and good hard feathers, Should be light in hind parts. Hens should have plenty of bone,good shoulder,flat on back. Yellow legs and bill show good constitution. Big mains are generally won by red or ginger birds. In all casaes hen birds should be the oldest. Mother and son,aunt and nephew,half brother and half sister,grandmother and grandson,the more crosses in that way the better. I have bred many a time from seven up to ten crosses,and by doing so in that way the cross appears like fresh blood in the strain

the white and dark legged birds always showed duller in colour than the yellow legged birds. On breeding from the dark legs, it generally flung white on the deaf ears that proved to me that the dark legs came from another class of bird and not from the english game.


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 Post subject: Re: Atkinson quotes
PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2011 1:06 pm 
Here's a bit more of Richard Stamps recollections for you Pearl

Image
Image


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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 12:12 am 
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Junior Champion Bird
Junior Champion Bird

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Location: North Coast NSW
thanks peg. atkinson mentions dr clarkes jap stag of 6 and a half pounds. He certainly wouldnt be using the term to describe assel. As far as you know would that weight fit with the tuzos you have mentioned before?

If anyone else has atkinson quotes feel free to post them. Heres a bit more from his time in france
The choice of cocks was left to Wm. Gilliver, who entirely against my advice and protests insisted on using the Craven Brown Reds,large,wide, strong cocks with Indian blood in them that depended on their strength and gameness to win. These qualities were, of course,useless against heavier,stronger birds that were fast and deadly heelers and they were (finished) before they had time to show their gameness.

there is a portion of the book that mentions atkinson crossing assel and spainish into his OEG that i will get to but my question,open to all, is there any proof of his use of assel ,and what sort of percentage, his used for the birds he took to france? I've often heard it said thats what he used for the birds he took to france but his comments seem to imply there would be no advantage to such a course of action.


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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 12:43 am 
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Junior Champion Bird
Junior Champion Bird

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Location: North Coast NSW
the oxford club
it is interesting to recall that it is by the exertions of the oxford OEG club the old British Game, or fighting cock, has been preserved from spoliation,or from being transformed into a useless fancy breed in the hands of unsuccessful commercial poultry dealers and prize hunters.
In the first era of poultry shows the game cock-what is now called OE-had a pride of place,but it was soon transformed,more and more,until the "modern game", a mere travesty of a game cock, was evolved It was st the beginning of the 80's that a class for the old breed was provided in the North, were the miners and others still fought their birds, and some 20 birds faced the judge. For 2 or 3 years this was a successand the right type won. I recall that in 1887 Mr Jacob Armstrong won with a red spangle,winner of 3 battles, whose fighting weight was 4lbs 4, the old weights for match weights in mains being 3lb 12 to 4lbs . But soon a change came,there was some interest shown,and enquires made, and the dealers were not slow to take advantage of it. Among the foremost and most successful was Mr John Brough,whose father had been a well known feeder and breeder of fighting cocks, and at his death they went to his son,who was a poulterer with a large business and used the cocks to send out to to farms (knowing there value in crossing to produce the highest class table fowl), where he had walked cocks for some years. There were, of course, birds seven-eighths or more game, and seeing the type of bird these ignorant judges awarded prizes to-large size,round shanks,long deep breats,and the more fluff and feather the better,so they had bright colour,white legs,red eyes. He was able to suit them exactly,there are still some of these,and you may see the traces of alien blood in many of the light hens,miscalled wheatens,in there soft faces and plumage.


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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 10:38 am 
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Junior Champion Bird
Junior Champion Bird

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Location: North Coast NSW
a few good sportsmen joined our club and our cheif object has alwasys been to maintain the old breed in its purity. We therefore have always made a stand against useless fancy points and mongrelising. Time after time some foolish person has criticised or awarded prizes at the poultry shows to rubbish. Many such prize winners have been palmed off by dealers at high prices to purchasers abroad, and proved such mongrels as to give the breed a bad name over the world. I could name a number of such cases. Here again we have had to prove abroad by satisfying them they could still obtain Game Cocks in this country equal to any.


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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 10:52 am 
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Junior Champion Bird
Junior Champion Bird

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it is enough to read some of the all-round poultrymans criticisms such as 'wings to long,tail to high." As if a game cock could have to high and to strong a tail, or to long and powerful wings. Another would like them 'to stand wide between the legs' which of course would make the bird wide beneath and prevent him using his spurs effectually. Then we see 'round legs' advocated. If anything shows good breeding it is the feet and the legs,the back sinew of the leg standing out from the bone,certainly not round and gummy; we may indeed expect anything from the fancier exhibitor. Quite recently i read an article on the ancient sport. The writer stated mains used to be made from 5lbs to upwards of 7lbs. in weight, and the feed of the cocks in training was wheat. What will some of the old breeders think of that! We apparently have much to learn.
Well, for over forty years our club from small beginnings has steadily increased and prospered, and I think it has justified its existence and kept the birds our ancestors prized so highly from being mongrelised,modified, or pacified.


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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 12:40 pm 
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Junior Champion Bird
Junior Champion Bird

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Location: North Coast NSW
THE PRESENT STANDARD OF OEG
Newer members of the club will be interested to know the history of our standard. When the club was reformed in 1887 several exhibitors joined it and at a meeting during the crystal Palace show-time was held at andertons hotel to make a standard by which to judge the breed. Poultry books were consulted, two or three knowledgeable cockers were present,and they were out-voted by the exhibition members and a standard evolved full of faults and errors and a hopeless muddle. However, despite this it was still printed by the club and it was not until 1908 that i protested against it being used,pointing out its errors and fallacies,and suggested another should be used founded on the description by John Harris,and given in the fanciers Gazette in 1875.
Now in 1884 i had persuaded John to write me another to which he made some additions. We went over it one night in London with our old friend Charles Faultless,known as the King of cockers,Charles Varndell, the noted breeder of Brown Reds, and Mr R. Daubeny,who bred the bone-breaker cock; and all agreede that it embodied all that could be described in writing of the requisite from time to time. I showed it to many old and practical breeders and cockers, including William Gilliver, J Gilman,Evans W. Yearsley, Issac Wickstead, Mr Patrickson,Taylor,Oldham,John Gill,Gage,Langley, and many of the oldest and best breeders of real game cocks; so it was of the most adopted by the club in 1910,after consulting and submitting it to a committee of the most experienced and practical members of the club for suggestions and revision, when after a considerable correspondence it was unanimously confirmed and is, I think, as complete as a written description can be, although over and above this, a judge requires good practical knowledge,especially in handling a bird,to enable him to discriminate between faults of proportion,constitution, conformation,action and condition,that no written standard can give,for experience and good judgement are requisite.


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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 8:18 pm 
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Junior Champion Bird
Junior Champion Bird

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Location: North Coast NSW
Some 30 or 40 years ago Poultry shows began,and they have done much good,and in many ways,but from a practical point they have succeded in producing fromthe game fowl(the most useful of all) a bird,which beyond laying an average number of eggs in spring and summer,is about as useless a bird as well can be. The economic qualities of a bird whose head is about 2 inches longer,whose legs are at the least 6 inches more,and who can peck off a table 3 feet high, which in place of a long breast bone has a short one,who possesses about twice the bone and half the quantity of flesh,who in place of a good coating of feathers to protect it from the cold and wet, has hardly sufficent to hide its nakedness,if that is improving a breed of fowls,then poultry shows have done good to the game breed. Fortunately scattered over the country are a few who,though never showing,breed and keep the old english fighting game. Cock-fighters require certain qualities without which their birds would be useless. They must be very muscular,and muscle represents the flesh we eat;have broad full meaty breasts,big firm thighs;they must have great strength; they must also be very active,and above all hardy,or how would they recover as they sometimes do from their encounters. They have sufficient feather to protect them from the cold. These,i take it, are the qualities most directly useful to the farmer,besides which they are good layers; as a cross with common poultry they stand alone.


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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 2:42 am 
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Old Mother Goose
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What you are saying about how showing can ruin an animal, I started breeding exhibition budgies a while ago I also breed the little bush type budgies. They are the same species of bird but you wouldnt know it. I have refused to breed the overdone show types that can't see, can't fly, super prone to circo virus and polyama from weak lines and the stress their physical condition puts them in... many breeders call it french moult when it is actually one of 2 or both of the most serious bird diseases. They loose their tail anf flight feathers and you get sudden deaths in the nest boxes. I never see this in my bush budgies but stacs of exhibition birds. They get sick at the drop of a hat. I bought a lot of birds from a 'top' local breeder all of them had problems not all apparant straight away some couldnt even breed. I look at what is winning overseas and here and it disgusts me. I do like a nice exhibition budgies with good feather and good size head and blow that is put together well. BUT it is getting extreme. Noone is ever satisfied always things go to extremes. If the head and feather gets any bigger the damn birds will not even be able to stand upright they will be tipping over and banging their beas on the perches.

I have just focussed on what I think a good show budgie should be like, to what the standard says while still being functional. I like the colours and thats what I like about them, and being able to watch them all flying around and healthy like a budgie should.

It goes for gamefowl, chickens of all types, dogs etc... what they have done to the brittish bulldog is disgusting and the german shepard I could list more. Persian cats... Well I have succeeded in breeding some good size, solid black silkies this year of good type, that meet the standard for weight and as it states crest should not obstruct vision... well I have nice pullets with crests that allow them to see and do you think they would ever ein a show? No way...

edit to apologise for typos my keyboard has issues...

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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 6:44 am 
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Gallant Game
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Firstly well done Pearl Eye great material; this information holds great relevance to all breeders and fanciers! :thumbs:

Probably for the Moderators, I understand the change to Poultry Library; re discussion on historical text! But why was this thread changed from Atkinson Quotes to Atkinson Quotes on the Asil? :?:

Nor do I understand why part or my post were removed; all my contributions have been reflective of the current state of poultry today, not breed focused! My congratulations goes out to all breeders and fanciers who have resisted the pressures of change which Atkinson and others from his era clearly highlight in reference material left for us to study! :!:

Again well done Pearl Eye excellent material; the learned breeder will get a lot more value from this material they ever will gain from studying plates contained in a standard! :!:

Keep it coming! :thumbs:


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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 2:01 pm 
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Junior Champion Bird
Junior Champion Bird

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thanks for the replies
chookster, your point on the budgies is a prime example,millions of years of evolution changed in a few decades to create a 'perfect' bird that cant even fly

pedro, i think a post like this was needed. Atkinsons written word is there for all to see, its not enough to just take some pictures and the standard on there own. Every thing he ever wrote, and his lifes work, was about avoiding OEG becoming a non-functional breed


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