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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 2:48 pm 
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Showy Hen
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Location: Laidley SEQ
I put some of my own eggs under a broody from 3 different hens. Two buff Sussex x Wyandottes and a Plymouth rock that was the only survivor from the heat wave at the start of the year. 7 eggs down but only 3 hatched. The rooster is (as someone on this site said) a poorly bred Plymouth rock :laughing and yep for a $5 market special he is but Roger is a great rooster. So out of the three hens, see if you can spot the mum. One thing I noticed on the chicks, two of them have different combs from the third :dontknow
Roger
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The Plymouth and cross sussex
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And the chicks with the broody the other cross sussex
Image


Last edited by Bakes on Thu Nov 20, 2014 10:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 3:34 pm 
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Champion Bird
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The chick with the different comb is a pullet, (front left). The other two are cockerels and seem to have a Wyandotte type comb.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 3:43 pm 
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Prime Pekin
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The 2 males (as pointed out . One ech side of the hen ) look to have Wyandotte combs and as such the red hen that also looks to have a wyandotte comb would be the mother . Combs look to me like this But maybe need bettter photos to confirm . Note also the leg colour on the Pullet ??
EDIT I have just re-read your ORIGINAL post about the combs . Since you also said the buff Sussex was also a Wyandotte cross you can't rule her out either since she would be carring the wyandotte comb .


Last edited by Martin Holmes on Tue Nov 18, 2014 4:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 4:04 pm 
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Showy Hen
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Would they throw to such a prominent Plymouth rock look (colour etc) just based on old Roger? good to know I have some cockerels. Looking forward to them on the plate! I'll take some better pictures tomorrow.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 7:20 pm 
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Wise One
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The Buff Sussex looking female shouldn't be the mother of the Cockerels. If she had the rose comb gene she would express it as it is dominant over wild-type allele. I can't see the comb on the barred female too well. If the barred female has other than single comb she could be the mother. She may only have a single dose of the Rosecomb gene (if she has other than single comb), hence the single combed pullet.

If the barred female doesn't have a Rose type comb, ie, she has a single comb, then the red hen would have to be the mother (if no other birds involved). With the right genes between the pair (eg, for shank colour, black enhancers) that is possible as I understand.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 5:07 pm 
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Showy Hen
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Location: Laidley SEQ
Finally got some new pics of the combs.

The two x hens
Image
Image
The PR hen
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The chicks
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Image

That's about the best I can do with fast moving chooks :laughing


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 9:22 am 
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Wise One
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The barred female appears to have a small narrow single comb. If that is the case, then the red hen with the rose type comb should be the mother of the cockerels @ least.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 10:32 pm 
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Showy Hen
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Yeah looks that way. Interesting that they throw to such a strong PR colour. Is that normal. I would of thought they would be a mix of the two types.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 4:30 pm 
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Wise One
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Roger is a black, barred bird. He possibly has two doses of dominant black (E/E), two doses of dominant barring (B/B), & other enhancers of black (genes that assist with turning him the black that he is). If he has two doses of each then he will pass one dose of each onto all chickens (boys & girls). One dose of dominant black (E) will turn his progeny (when mated to hen with conducive genotype) largely dark/black. One dose of dominant barring (B) will interrupt the intervals @ which melanin (black colour in this case) is deposited into feather resulting in barred effect. Hence, black barred progeny.

The barring gene is on the sex chromosome & has a dosage effect. Boys can have two doses (girls only one), & two doses are more potent making for a lighter looking male (as I understand) due to wider white-ish portions of feather. I don’t know if these males with two doses start out dark then turn lighter, or are lighter from the start. Your boys are quite dark like the pullet, unlike Roger who looks lighter generally to me (? two doses of barring). If the cockerels turn out dark (one dose of barring) this would support the red hen being the mother, as if the barred hen was the mother (& Roger has two doses of barring) the Cockerels would have two doses of barring & possibly be lighter too?

As for comb, the rose type comb gene is dominant to its wild-type (for single type comb) partner, so, if both are present, a rose type of comb is what we should see. This is why the single combed females shouldn't be the mother of the cockerels, because if they each had a dose of the rose type gene ,then that is what we should see in them (in the absence of other for comb mutations of major effect). If we don’t see it, then they shouldn't have it, & if they don’t have it, they can’t pass it onto their chickens, so no rose comb chickens from them (when mated to single combed rooster). The pullet however does have a single comb, so one of the single combed hens possibly the mother of her, or the rose type combed red hen could be as she likely has recessive single type comb gene (R/r+) also, if one of her parents a single combed Sussex?

I wonder how type will turn out as the chickens grow?


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 7:24 pm 
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Champion Bird
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Hi Bakes,

Based on the comb type, the rose combed chicks must have come from the rose combed hen. Simply put, two single combed birds cannot produce a rose combed bird due to the dominance of the rose comb gene. Two rose combed birds can produce some single combed offspring if both parents are carrying the single comb gene (often referred to as split). Again due to the dominance of the rose comb gene, a rose combed bird can carry the single comb gene but a single comb bird cannot carry the rose comb gene. You can use a single comb hen and test breed with a rose combed rooster to determine if the rooster is carrying the single comb gene but you have to breed lots of chicks to be sure. If any of the chicks hatch with a single comb then the rooster is carrying the single comb gene. The same test can be done with genders reversed. Not that i am suggesting that you do this, just trying to explain how it works before i get to the crux or the reason i am replying.

In your original post you mentioned that you lost some birds last summer and also that you are looking forward to having the cockerels on a plate. My understanding is that rose combed birds are considered better adapted to temperature extremes. One of those cockerels might be a good replacement for you if you wish to produce more rose combed birds for future seasons. I was looking at your rooster and was wondering if he might be a single combed barred wyandotte. Occasionally single combs pop up and some breeders are happy to use them because they are often larger and more vigorous than their rose combed hatch mates. There is also a slight difference in the way residual fertility works with the rose comb gene in play but i don't think it will cause you any problems. On the note of eating roosters. I breed wyandottes and my neighbour breeds light sussex. He loves his chicken sandwiches and raves over the flavour of my wyandottes. He actually grows out more of my cockerels than i do.

So if you are looking to select for birds that may handle harsher conditions and producing a bit of tasty meat on the side. I would suggest keeping a rose combed cockerel that is possibly 3/4 wyandotte for your next season. Just my 2 cents.......maybe i'm a little wyandotte biased.

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There's silk in my name but dottes are my game. Amateur breeder of standard blue laced red wyandottes.

Shane.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 9:58 am 
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Showy Hen
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Thanks for the reply's everyone. Very interesting. The red hen with the rose comb went broody yesterday so I'm going to let her sit. At the moment I have one egg from her and one from the PR hen. I'll mark them properly and see what turns out. The light brown (buff?) hen than sat on the eggs has just started to lay again as well. Three smallish eggs over three days.

Quote:
I was looking at your rooster and was wondering if he might be a single combed barred wyandotte.


Interesting, I don't really know what he is. He's a $5 rooster from the markets and was told by people on there he's a PR. Makes no difference to me however, I'm not breeding anything to sell, just to have a bit of fun and grow out some birds for the table, and I like old Roger, he's calm but looks after his girls well, even seeing off the dog next door.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 3:15 pm 
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Champion Bird
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Some general rules of thumb to help you with your goals. DISCLAIMER: I am a beginner but enthusiastic about the genetics side of things. My research has been mostly into my breeds (wyandottes and silkies) and the genes that pertain to these breeds and the colours i am interested in. So i have been looking at blue, partridge, lacing, gold and silver, yellow skin, black skin, silkie feathering, foot feathering beards, crests and those sort of things but will do my best to help. Hopefully someone with more experience and knowledge can confirm or discount the accuracy of this info. I believe i have my head around it for the most part but still getting a handle on some of the proper terminology (so i will use lay terms).

As covered before, 2 single combed birds can only produce single combed offspring. A single combed bird with a rose combed bird will produce 100% rose combed birds (assuming the rose combed parent is pure for rose comb) that are carrying the single comb gene (sometimes called split for single comb). A single combed bird with a "split" rose combed bird will produce some of each and all the rose combed offspring will be split for single comb. So your wyandotte x sussex with the rose comb will be split and may produce single combed offspring as well as rose combed (split because of Roger).

Another general rule with colour is that hens only have one chromosome to attach colour genes while roosters have two. The mode of inheritance is; pullets get one gene (for colour) from dad and cockerels get a combo of 1 from dad and 1 from mum. Therefore, generally speaking, most crosses will produce pullets that look like dad and cockerels that can look like a blend of dad and mum. This is very generally speaking though and i'm sorry i don't yet understand when the rule applies and when it doesn't apply.

Having said this (and if i am correct) your barred pullet with the single comb could have come from any of your hens. Perhaps the info in rollyard's response in regard to double doses of barring etc. will help you determine if she did or didn't come from the barred hen with the single comb. Rollyard obviously has a better handle on the barring gene than i do. Leg colour may help indicate the mother also. Light sussex are supposed to have white legs, wyandottes (and i believe plymouth rocks) are supposed to have yellow legs. Another indicator may be shape (type). Sussex hens are supposed to have a flat/straight back and wyandottes and pr's have a curved back. To my eye (again, i am an amateur) the only real difference between a barred wyandotte and a pr is the comb type and prs have a fluffier cushion especially around the thighs. I believe pr's were used to introduce the barring gene for barred wyandottes so it is not too far fetched to assume there is still some single comb gene hiding in barred wyandottes that will crop up from time to time. Roger's lack of fluffy thighs is the biggest reason i thought he may me a single combed wyandotte. It really doesn't make much difference for what you are after, they probably taste much the same (haven't knowingly eaten a plymouth rock before).

I hope this info is accurate and some of it helps you achieve your goals.

_________________
There's silk in my name but dottes are my game. Amateur breeder of standard blue laced red wyandottes.

Shane.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 3:56 pm 
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Wise Wyandotte
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Based on the neatness of the barring, I suspect that barred pullet did not come from from the barred hen. Generally progeny from barred rooster x non barred hen will have somewhat blurred barring, whereas if the dam has good barring, then the progeny are very likely to have very neat barring. So based on the somewhat blurry barring on the pullet, I'd point to one of the other hens.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 5:24 pm 
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Wise One
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Like you, DottesnSilk, I had a think about leg colour too. My thoughts were that purebred Plymouth Rock, Sussex, & Wyandottes have yellow/white shanks/feet (all varieties I think?) because they have a Z-linked gene (Id) that prevents/reduces dark pigment from being deposited into the legs. Extended black contributes towards the darkening of the shanks/feet, & Id on its own has problems stopping the action of E. The Z-linked barring (B) gene does help as I understand.

The cockerels possibly fair better with not having as dark shanks/feet because they could have two doses of Id (one dose of B from Roger) working for them, hence reduced/no leg darkening, but the pullet would (if this is the case) only have one dose of Id from Roger (one dose of B from Roger too), hence not enough punch to prevent full effect of E.

Perhaps the pullets shanks/feet will lose some black as she gets older?


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 6:27 pm 
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Champion Bird
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Yep, got that :shoc , maybe after i read it another dozen times it will make sense :-P . Just when i thought i was starting to get a handle on this whole breeding and genetics thing, someone comes along and reminds me of how much i have yet to learn :help: . Thanks rollyard, i will read it very carefully, one word at a time, several times and like mud thrown at a brick wall, eventually it will stick. Thanks for your input. I worry about coming across as a bit of a 'know it all" sometimes but i am aware that i still have sooooo much to learn. Helping others with basic questions is helping to reinforce what i have been learning and when someone like you comes in and adds some more technical aspects, that takes that learning curve to a whole new level. Very much appreciated :thumbs:

And thank you andrewschooks for your input also. Your comments are often very short but very useful. :nail:

_________________
There's silk in my name but dottes are my game. Amateur breeder of standard blue laced red wyandottes.

Shane.


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