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Appealing a permit decision
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Author:  choko [ Thu Mar 31, 2011 8:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Appealing a permit decision

The art of negotiation is to demand a lot then compromise. Councils know this, bosses know this, and workers used to know this (but most people don't believe they're workers now :lol: ).

Ask for 12. Make the case so strongly that nobody in their right might couldn't see how reasonable — indeed necessary! — that number is (eggs for home/neighbours or to save a breed). Then you've got a number to compromise from.

Author:  NaeNae [ Thu Mar 31, 2011 10:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Appealing a permit decision

WOW - I have literally spent over an hour reading this, I am SO sorry you lost Arte as well as others in your flock. Your neighbours seem like a real piece of work. How long before you can contact the police about an order?

Unfortunately they will see this as a "win to them" and will think they have all the power.

My mother has an "ethnic" neighbour who is such a trouble maker, she has even thrown scolding hot water over the fence in an attempt to keep a barking dog quiet .... not mums but the other side ... um lady if you get OFF the fence the dog will stop barking ... idiot!
(not suggesting ethnic people are all bad just the origins of this particular neighbour) She also saw herself somewhat higher in the community than everyone else ... I dunno what happened in the end but she ended up moving and the new neighbours are lovely.

How are you holding up hun? I wish there was some way of offering something other than cyber support. I use to work for a neighouring council and you'd be surprised (or not) how loud the voice of one complaining biddy can be ...

Again I am so sorry, I wish you could do something about these people, unfortunately council have to look into complaints and be seen to be doing something, even if its not the "right" thing.

All the best hun, don't worry, Karma will come back and bite these turds sooner or later!

Nae x

Author:  dickdi [ Thu Mar 31, 2011 10:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Appealing a permit decision

Epiphany, what you can do now ? Get that order!

I followed through with my intervention order against my neighbour and I have to say, it has been the best decision I made.

My life is extremely peaceful and I have NO stress or anxiety anymore about going outside. I never see him or hear him except for once last weekend when I saw him in the middle of his yard. He's not allowed within 10 metres of me so cannot come over to the common fence when I am on that side of my yard which of course means he can't get up and peer over into my yard and invade my space and demand I do things to suit him, so it's wonderful.

About 2 weeks ago I was saying goodbye to some friends in my driveway at the front of my house and he walked up the street and when he saw me he had to cross the road and detour into his driveway. I got a great deal of satisfaction out of that hehe.

I can't tell you the difference it has made to my comfort and disposition. You have a much stronger case than I did as well so go for it.

Good luck

Vicki

Author:  epiphany [ Thu Mar 31, 2011 4:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Appealing a permit decision

I'm waiting for the next act of abuse to happen & then I will apply for the AVO. And I know it's not *if* but *when*...these people have been abusive long before Arte was here. They will continue to be now he is gone. But my lawyer advised to wait until after the court case was over, so it didn't look like I was being vindictive about him (but to definitely incl their behaviour & what happened as part of my application).

In the mean time, I have made sure my property is immaculate (so they can't complain to Council about anything else - they are currently using 'legal' forms of harassment by complaining about *everything* to Council - I received a notice to comply to move some mulch I had on my nature strip!). I have gone onto preventitive migraine medication (I have been getting continual migraines in part due to stress) & have an appointment with a psychiatrist next week to discuss options about stress & anxiety management, as I still don't feel safe in my backyard or even walking in the street in front of their house in case I am confronted by them. Not only will this help me deal with living next to them but it will also help bolster my case when I apply for the AVO. The migraine medication is helping a little as well because it stops my heart rate going up when I'm stressed, so I feel much calmer. Just reading that last paragraph back makes me sad - it is not like me at all to be like this. I am normally a reasonably outgoing, confident person but this whole situation has made me quite anxious.

The pollie letter is great. Although I'd add something about the genetic diversity backyard chooks provide (very important for heirloom chooks), etc. I wrote a very long letter as part of my appeal that could be pared down & used, if anyone would like a copy. Actually...is it possible to upload files for download here? Rather than pasting the whole thing (as it's quite long). Maybe I will wok on an abridged version. I'm also aware roosters can sometimes be a problem in the suburbs. But that doesn't mean they're *always* an issue. My roo hardly crowed at all. What was wrong with our original law of no limits but roos would be decided on if enough noise complaints were made (there was no reason *why* it had to be changed).

I also think it's important to highlight the absolute power Casey Council has & the complete lack of recourse the public have. The method used for 'public consultation' prior to bylaws being revised is inadequate. The way the bylaws are written ensures that the public have no rights & the Council have absolute power. The complete lack of due process in this case highlights the incredibly flawed appeal & review process Council have in place. And I have been absolutely disgusted with the behaviour of my local Counsellor (fobbing me off without explanation whilst advising my neighbours of decisions *before* I'd even been told & *bringing motions before Council* as a result of me!!). Why are my rights being ignored? Why is the opinion of my other FIVE neighbours not listened to or even sought?! Because ONE person is complaining (& even after it's been proved that person is just complaining vexatiously)?

As an aside, if the council thinks their little public consultation forum thing on their website covers their backside...what a joke. The public can't start their own topics & you're only allowed to discuss what the council says you can. They are clearly *not* interested in public feedback. Don't even get me started on their 'sustainable municipality' rubbish they spout on all their signage (although that is a good one for arguing for the case for chooks).

Anyway, I'll get off my soapbox now. Thanks again for everyone's support & words of encouragement.

Author:  coppertop [ Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Appealing a permit decision

I am curious about your horrible neighbours. Have you won a round? How is Artemis?

Author:  TookTook [ Fri Jun 10, 2011 11:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Appealing a permit decision

yes Epiphany - I am wondering too. How are you?

Author:  rotten_66 [ Fri Jun 10, 2011 3:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Appealing a permit decision

She hasn't been on BYP since May 2,


Ron

Author:  epiphany [ Wed Jul 27, 2011 4:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Appealing a permit decision

Hi guys. Some days I just wish there was a little island somewhere I could go live on so I don't have to deal with this crap ever again. I'm *still* dealing with the fallout from this.

Sooo...I sent in my permit application back in March. As requested by the council to keep 10 chooks. They even indicated on their own paperwork they would let me keep this many. About a month ago I phoned asking what had happened. I was told someone would phone me back. No surprises...no one did. I phoned again two weeks ago...I was told they hadn't acted on it because they though the Court case was the end of it (?). They requested another payment & would treat it as a new application.

Fast forward to today. I've just been informed it's been denied. Apparently based on previous complaints & non compliance.

I really can't cope with this any more.

Author:  70%cocoa [ Wed Jul 27, 2011 4:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Appealing a permit decision

I hardly know what to say. This council...well....they are incomprehensible.

:grouphug:

Author:  epiphany [ Wed Jul 27, 2011 4:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Appealing a permit decision

Now I've had 5 mins to think, I'm kind of at a loss. I don't think they've consulted with neighbours as I don't think they've had enough time to send the forms out but I'll have to check (the one I went to see wasn't home). And they *told* me to reapply (& pay again, I might add)! If they were just going to refuse, why bother? Apparently "management had a discussion" & "took into account the situation with the neighbour".

I'm just...I don't know...speechless & drained & tired & angry all at once.

What do I do?

Author:  70%cocoa [ Wed Jul 27, 2011 5:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Appealing a permit decision

I guess the options are:
- 1. Reapply (but this option is likely to involve significant and ongoing emotional cost without any promise of a good outcome)
- 2. Decide to enjoy the chickens you have and have nothing more to do with the council
- 3. Consider whether or not you are still happy to live where you are (i.e. in that council area) or if the whole experience has been so awful that you'd like to move. I am not saying that you should move house, just that it is something to consider or reject.

I would totally understand if you went with Option 1. But these people are not rational and do not even abide by their own rules. It doesn't sound as if they can be influenced. However, councils (and neighbours) come and go and things may be different in the future.

I'd be doing the thing that was best for my (mental) health at this point. But you don't have to decide exactly what that is today though, or tomorrow.

Author:  Hermetic_Eggs [ Wed Jul 27, 2011 8:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Appealing a permit decision

epiphany wrote:
Chicory wrote:
If this complaining woman can't hear the rooster at night, and he is very quiet during the day, then she has nothing to complain about.
can she actually SEE into your yard?... I am sure you aren't the only one she harrasses.


I'm not the only one she harasses. Other people in the area have problems with her too.

No, she can't hear him at night (he doesn't make any noise at night anyway). No, she can't hear him in the morning. He's inside the house until at least 9.30am every day. He normally crows around lunchtime & sometimes again around 4pm. I've kept records & he normally crows up to around 10-15 times over a 10 minute period. On noisy days (he seems to respond to noise in the area), he might crow mid-morning as well. Some days he doesn't crow at all. We are surrounded by dogs. There is a lot of building still going on in the area but (& I quote from a letter she sent me):

Quote:
I work from home & it [the crowing] is distracting to say the least. When [name removed] is working from home, he finds it extremely annoying & distracting. When we have guests they find it annoying & are somewhat gobsmacked that in a residential area this is actually allowed. We find it intrusive & so do many other neighbours who are not in the immediate vicinity. You may be surprised at how far the crowing noise travels.


Now...I should point out that the "other neighbours" she mentions are probably, in all likelihood, her relatives who live 3 doors & a road away from us - she got them to complain to the Council as well (I was told by the laws officer that a woman had phoned up because "I've heard my friend has laid a noise complaint, so I'm making one in support"). We have 6 adjoining neighbours. I have approached all of them (including my nasty neighbour...who has reassured me in the past, on multiple occasions *to my face* that my roo was fine - I suspect she is a bit of a coward). Every single one said they are happy for my roo to be there. I also approached other, non-adjoinging properties. One person who lives closer than my neighbours' relatives looked at me with shock - she had no idea I had a roo as she'd never heard him. And of everyone I spoke to, only 2 people are away during a work day (so it's not like they only hear him on the weekend). So other people in the neighbourhood are *not* finding it intrusive...& I think she might be surprised just how many people I have spoken to in the area.

Yes, she can see into my yard if she decides to have a sticky (some of her windows upstairs overlook part of my backyard but not the coops as they're on the other side of the house). Apparently I am a barnyard, I cause mouse, mozzie & fly problems (they found a dead mouse on their property this year...we live opposite a lake & extensive parkland...maybe *that* has something to do with your mice & mozzies, no? As for flies...pfft...you live in Aussie & there are flies in summer. Get over it already). She claims I'm cruel to my chooks because I keep him indoors at night. I can't win!

I am not unreasonable...if my roo was causing a genuine problem & other people were finding the noise to be an issue, then I would accept it & rehome him. I totally understand that roos in the burbs can cause problems. But this woman has a history of bizarre behaviour towards us & others in the area & the roo situation is just part of a whole ongoing saga. She is someone who likes to maintain a facade of wealth & happiness & being an upstanding, popular member of the community. In reality, she is rude & obnoxious for no apparent reason (& no one particularly likes her). She has accused me of all sorts of odd things. I've been threatened & harassed. And her behaviour just beggars belief (everything from coming on to the property uninvited on multiple occasions to going through my green waste, accusing me of spreading thistle seeds over her nature strip, & attempting to intimidate our water tank installer...among other things). I doubt she realises it but I have kept all her letters (she likes to write letters) & have witnesses for virtually every single event except for the time she went through my green waste. With her last letter, I decided to finally tell her enough was enough (normally I ignore her...don't feed the troll & all that) but she'd gone too far this time. As well as addressing all her points (politely), I listed everything she'd done. I told her to pull her head in, effectively. The nasty gram I got in return was rather vile...I was called crazy, a liar & she threatened legal action if she ever found out I was slandering her. A coward's response when they realise they've been caught out. The Council have copies of everything she has sent me (& what I wrote to her).

So the upshot is, she continues to annoy the Council so they have decided to be seen to do something (yes, they even said as much to me).

Interestingly, one of my other neighbours walked past this evening while I was out the front. He was shocked it had been declined. He said his impression was that the feedback form sent out by the Council indicated not to return anything unless they had an objection. So they had just left it. I wonder if this is the problem? I wonder if no one has sent back a letter of support...they've only received her objection, so they've declined it? Of course, until the Council actually tell me why they've declined it, I won't know for sure.

Mariel...as an aside...Casey have fines for flying kites in a park. It's so stupid.



If some council guy came and tried to issue me a fine for flying a kite with my kids in a council park, i'd lay him out flat and then press charges on him and then the council stating I was protecting my child as he tried to man-handling me and my child trying to issue the ticket. And on a side note, even though i have not finished reading this post yet, I would arrange for some 'seriously illegal substances' to find their way into her backyard or shed and then have someone call the cops. Some sort of drug, compound or illegal quantities of 'restricted chemical substance' thats on the youknowwhat watch list and let her get lost in having to defend herself for the next 3-5years in court. Im sure by that time, your rooster would not even be on her mind.

Author:  Hermetic_Eggs [ Wed Jul 27, 2011 10:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Appealing a permit decision

right ive finished reading this thread, and i have to say im not surprised. there is top down pressure from international trade sanctions (Codex Alimentarius), which are implemented by gov at all levels to reduce people capacity to feed themselves. I can understand if your boys are super loud but given they are not you have to qn the real reason why people cant keep food producing animals. In the USA they have just implemented legislation to outlaw the growing and supply and trading of backyard and non-resgistered produce both animal and vegetable/fibre. So its illegal to feed yourself now. Wont be long till that crap is here in Aus.

But regardless of all that crap, I would do the following without regret. Find a battery egg producer who needs to get rid of their 'spent hens' and arrange to pay dirt cheap for them. Have them delivered to the neighbours house and let them go. Fingers crossed you'll end up with 1500 odd chooks. Furthermore when arranging all this drop off, use a pre-paid cell phone (one that doesn't require ID to buy - or a second hand one), use the asshat neighbours name and pay via western union or bank cheque. Instructions to driver, unload on front lawn.

maybe im joking, maybe im not :rofl:
:aaargh: :catch:

Author:  70%cocoa [ Thu Jul 28, 2011 11:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Appealing a permit decision

I think that the neighbours and the council are just plain awful, incompetent small-minded, aggressive, arrogant, narcissistic, mean and cruel. You don't have to look for a major conspiracy. Responding with criminal behaviour of your own doesn't help the problem (although fantasising about it doesn't hurt!!).

We are all thinking of you, Epiphany, we really are. :grouphug:

Author:  chiquita [ Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Appealing a permit decision

70%cocoa wrote:
I guess the options are:
- 1. Reapply (but this option is likely to involve significant and ongoing emotional cost without any promise of a good outcome)
- 2. Decide to enjoy the chickens you have and have nothing more to do with the council
- 3. Consider whether or not you are still happy to live where you are (i.e. in that council area) or if the whole experience has been so awful that you'd like to move. I am not saying that you should move house, just that it is something to consider or reject.

I would totally understand if you went with Option 1. - But these people are not rational and do not even abide by their own rules. It doesn't sound as if they can be influenced. However, councils (and neighbours) come and go and things may be different in the future.

I'd be doing the thing that was best for my (mental) health at this point. But you don't have to decide exactly what that is today though, or tomorrow.

Epiphany, I do feel for you and understand that you are coming to the end of your tether. :grouphug:

Cocoas suggestion does make a lot of sense, and....if I was you :? ..... for the imminente future I would go for option 2. and at the same time concentrate on option 3. - trying to get away from at least that neighbourhood.
Option 1. would be out of question for myself, for the sake of my own sanity.


And on a totally different level I wondered whether it is not just an accident that your username is Epiphany, which means, amongst other meanings, the most important going back to religion, also:

"...a sudden intuitive perception of, or insight into, the reality or essential meaning of"......(a situation?)


I do hope that rather sooner than later this dreadful story has become history for you.
:grouphug:

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