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 Post subject: Re: RE - CYDECTIN
PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 11:36 am 
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Golden Magpie
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Cathy - yes I have. I have also used ivermectin, normectin etc. They all do what they are supposed to do. We used them because its what we use on the sheep. Each of the mectins are available for about $220-$250 for twenty litres and for commercial sheep farmers thats about the ideal amount for 2,000 to 4,000 sheep.

The smaller volumes of drenches are considerably more expensive because the manufacturers consider smaller volumes a pain to produce and they are primarily interested in volume sales. Also because of the sheer cost of registering a product safe for small animals outside of the mainstay market it is simply "off label" - that is not registered and this includes poultry although it remains a safe and effective product for small animals.

Back onto Cydectin.
Pour ons and oral drenches of the same product (cydectin) are different products in that are manufactured for different uses.

Specifically - pour-on is mixed with an oil to make it sticky on an animal's skin and therefore be absorbed through the skin. It is NOT soluable in water and will simply float on top and it makes ingestion by the chooks (in this case) very unreliable. It must be applied individually to each chook to the skin - my choice is on bare skin under the wing. I would recommend two drops for bigger chickens and bantams and three drops for most large fowls and maybe four drops for very large fowls.

Oral drenches are not oil based and they are soluable in water which makes them ideal to mix in water (at a rate of 5ml per litre of water) and so dose and worm all the chooks without handlingeach fowl.

C'07 - I know you know all this - its for general information.

Mike

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 Post subject: Re: RE - CYDECTIN
PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 6:36 pm 
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Flock Master
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Back to you Mike... :confused:

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 Post subject: Re: RE - CYDECTIN
PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 10:52 pm 
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That's really good info. :nail: nailed it.

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 Post subject: Re: RE - CYDECTIN
PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 4:21 pm 
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Champion Bird
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Hi all,
I have both Moxidectin (Knox bird clinic) and cydectin pour on. (I already had cydectin for my lowlines and didn't know).

Anyway my questions are about doing very small and younger birds, and wether one is more suitable for either.

First I have some quite small adult birds they are predominately well under a kilo. I'm worried about being able to measure that excact and wonder if either can be diluted.

Next is how young they can be treated on either? and wether size plays a factor in this. (my belgian babies are tiny, but we just got some 14 week cochins and they tower over the biggest pekins already)

Since I have both would rotated be a good idea as I assume the cydectin has a broader worm spectrum, but probably doesn't cover as many mite breeds. Does anyone know what the cydectin covers.

Finally with holding periods for both - moxidectin says on the bottle not for use in animals for human consumption but I'm sure I was told on purchase that it was something like 2 weeks. Does this apply to feeding cooked eggs to chicks?

Do either have effect on wether you can incubate the eggs?

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 Post subject: Re: RE - CYDECTIN
PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 5:36 pm 
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Use the water based moxidectin. They are exactly the same product and treat the same parasites, but if you have a variety of weights, the birds can just drink normally and get the right dose.

As far as age goes, some vets recommend leave worming until 12 weeks, others say start at six weeks. In any case, a good routine is to do it every 3 months (every season).

It really doesn't matter if you rotate between these two as they are the same thing, just a different method of absorbtion. Some people recommend to rotate with other drug types - other than those that have the active ingredient moxidectin.

Feed the cooked eggs back to the chicks - that's fine as the reside in the eggs is tiny.

As the witholding is only 5 days, just wait until after that to collect for incubating to be on the safe side.
Quote:
MOXIDECTIN

http://www.auspigeonco.com.au/medicatio ... tions.html

Category Anthelmintic

Active ingredients Moxidectin

Guaranteed analysis Moxidectin 2 mg/ml

Available sizes 125 ml

Directions
Flock treatment – Dilute at the rate of 5 ml to 1 litre of drinking water and make available to the birds for 24/48 hours. The solution should be made fresh prior to use and provided in a clean drinking vessel. Remove all other sources of water.

Notes
Moxidectin is a clear, fully water-soluble palatable syrup. Added to the drinking water for 24/48 hours, it clears roundworm (Ascaridia spp.) and hairworm (Capillaria spp.) infection. It is also effective against all external parasites that feed off body fluids, including mites and pigeon flies (Pseudolynchia spp.). Moxidectin also eliminates airsac mites (Sternostoma spp., Cytodites spp.). It has a wide safety margin and is safe to use during racing and breeding. It does not affect feather quality and is safe to use during moulting. Moxidectin does not cause nausea and so the birds can be fed and loft-flown normally during treatment

Not to be used in birds producing meat or eggs for human consumption
Withholding period – 5 days

Storage Store below 30C (room temperature) in a dry place

Moxidectin is regarded as the bird wormer of choice by most veterinarians. It is effective against roundworm, hairworm and any external parasites that feed off body fluids (i.e. mites, pigeon flies). It can be used during moulting, racing and breeding and can either be given in its concentrated form directly into the throat or alternatively diluted into the drinking water. It is also well absorbed through the skin and can therefore be applied topically, which is convenient for small birds such as canaries and budgerigars. The drug has a wide safety margin and birds can be fed and watered normally during its use.

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 Post subject: Re: RE - CYDECTIN
PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 5:51 pm 
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Golden Magpie
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flipacro wrote:
Hi all,
I have both Moxidectin (Knox bird clinic) and cydectin pour on. (I already had cydectin for my lowlines and didn't know).

Okay - they are BOTH moxidectin - the same active ingrediant - the difference is that the pour on has an oil base to make it stick to the skin while the moxidectin is absorbed. It cannot be used in drinking water. The Knox clinic oral drench solution is water soluable (no oil) and able to be used in drinking water.

Anyway my questions are about doing very small and younger birds, and wether one is more suitable for either.

Both are the same active ingrediant and equally as effective.

First I have some quite small adult birds they are predominately well under a kilo. I'm worried about being able to measure that excact and wonder if either can be diluted.

Dont bother - its a very safe compound with a good tolerance for overdosing. Golden rule is the oral drench solution is 5ml per litre of drinking water. The oil based one is two drops on the bare skin under the wing on very small birds, three drops under the wing on for large birds nd perhaps four drops under the wing on very large birds. Stay within this general range and you will not overdose. It is safe and effective.

Next is how young they can be treated on either? and wether size plays a factor in this. (my belgian babies are tiny, but we just got some 14 week cochins and they tower over the biggest pekins already).

I would be wary about treating baby chickens but there is little point in treating any chickens under six weeks of age. They havn't built up a bioload (of worms or mites and lice) big enough to warrant worming. I would worm all birds that are on the ground from twelve weeks onwards though. And then repeat again after two weeks to kill any worm that have hatched since. Then every three months or at the change of the seasons

Since I have both would rotated be a good idea as I assume the cydectin has a broader worm spectrum, but probably doesn't cover as many mite breeds. Does anyone know what the cydectin covers.

Rotation of wormers refers to the wormer types - in sheep and catttle terms - clear and white drenches. That is; the mectins (moxidectin, ivermectin, normectin etc) are all clear drenches. Levamisole, piperazine rametin etc are white drenches. You dont rotate between clear drenches. You rotate between white drenches and clear drenches.

In simple terms - you would use a mectin type for one drench period and perhaps levamisole the next drench period three months later


Moxidectin in both forms (pour on and oral drench) kill just about all worms except tapeworm. It also kills most of the blood sucking Lice, scaley leg mite, body mites, stickfast fleas etc. It does not kill feather mite as the feathers do not have a blood supply and that mite does not bite into the skin

Finally with holding periods for both - moxidectin says on the bottle not for use in animals for human consumption but I'm sure I was told on purchase that it was something like 2 weeks. Does this apply to feeding cooked eggs to chicks?

Two weeks is the standard time usually quoted

Do either have effect on wether you can incubate the eggs?
No - incubate away happily


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 Post subject: Re: RE - CYDECTIN
PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 6:52 pm 
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Hatchling
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Hi all, Im new here and hoping someone can answer my query. I have used Ivermectin orally and then a few months later cydectin pour on. I have been told that worms can develop a tolerance to the mectins and to use a white drench alternating with the mectin. I have bought Rycoben sheep drench mineralised with selenium. The vet is no use and couldnt tell me how much to use. So does anyone know please. I have Adult and young birds - Orpingtons, Wyandottes, Pekins. Thanks in advance. Cyd in New ZEaland.


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 Post subject: Re: RE - CYDECTIN
PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 7:05 pm 
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Golden Magpie
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yes alternating drenches is always a good idea. Resistance development is a fact of life over time.

I am totally unfamiliar with Rycoben and I cant comment on its spectrum or usage for chooks.

Stella - our resident vet should be on sometime this evening again - she may comment if she does log back on.

Mike

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 Post subject: Re: RE - CYDECTIN
PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 7:53 pm 
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I have heard that there is some potential risk when using albendazole in pigeons. I don't know how serious it is or if the same would apply to chickens. Meredith may know that also.

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 Post subject: Re: RE - CYDECTIN
PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 6:39 am 
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I'm more worried about the Selenium added. I don't know how much would be too much for a bird, but it is one of those minerals that we do need to supplement in parts of Australia and all of NZ. Unfortunately, though, its quite poisonous if over-dosed. I'd steer clear, personally.

This vets not much use and can't tell you what the dose rate would be either :lol:

But you are correct about alternating with a white drench. You can use levamisole ( Kilverm, Sykes big L etc)
I'm pretty sure you have Kilverm in NZ, not so sure aboutt he Sykes.

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 Post subject: Re: RE - CYDECTIN
PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 11:20 am 
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Hatchling
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Thanks for your replies, I will take the bottle back to the shop and get something without selenium.........much appreciated.


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 Post subject: Re: RE - CYDECTIN
PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 2:23 pm 
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Junior Champion Bird
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Firstly, I apologise to taking this thread off course.

I use cydectin, mainly because it treats internal and external parasites. I have noticed that the last time I used it 2 weeks ago and followed up on Tuesday just passed, it didn't work on getting rid of stickfast fleas. Does anyone know what I may have done wrong? I use a dropper to deliver the cydectin on the skin on the back of the chook's neck.

The stickfast fleas are gathering in large numbers on one of the chooks and smaller numbers on some of the others. I am thinking of using Frontline to see if it will do the job. Will this harm the chook since I have just given them Cydectin recently?


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 Post subject: Re: RE - CYDECTIN
PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 2:28 pm 
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Can you tell us the type of Cydectin used, the amount that you gave the chicken, and the weight of the chicken? Also, how long have you been using Cydectin, and have you been rotating with any other products? It's worth checking in case your worming schedule is ineffective as well.

BTW, olive oil brushed over the stickfast fleas will suffocate them. They are a nuisance though and will keep coming back. A complete clean out and spray out is usually necessary.

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 Post subject: Re: RE - CYDECTIN
PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 2:45 pm 
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The Cydectin is the cattle and red deer type. I got some from a member here. I usually put two large drops on the skin on the back of the chooks neck. It's an araucana cross bantam. I would think it is 1kg at the most. I do try to rotate between Cydectin and Worm Enda but they really don't like Worm Enda. So I am never really sure how much of the wormer they actually get into them. They hold from drinking it for as long as they can.

I have tried using petroleum jelly on the stickfast fleas on the comb which works rather well. Now they have gathered on her eyelid. I afraid petroleum jelly or oils will be bad for her eyes.

I have 8 other chooks in the run, it seems only 3 of them have these fleas on them. The others look clean.


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 Post subject: Re: RE - CYDECTIN
PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 3:20 pm 
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Well that's the right amount and I can't say why it didn't work. There may be some resistance or some reason why. There may also be large numbers of them building up and the birds are getting reinfested. In any case, I'd try something else. Swift is a spot-on type of permethrin that's sold for horses. I have heard good reports from people that have used that. I also use it, but not for stickfast. You may find it more useful as it has a residual property as well. If using the spot-on I would also put some olive oil on your fingers and wipe it over the eyelid. I really don't think a little will hurt the eye if you're careful. Petroleum jelly is not considered to be very toxic either, so while I'd always be super careful about putting anything near the eyes, a careful application of a small amount is unlikely to cause a problem.

That's just one suggestion. Frontline may be good as well. You could use Frontline spray and spray it onto your finger and then wipe it directly onto the body of the fleas. It is a different chemical from moxidectin so I can't see any reason why you couldn't use it straight away if you choose to.

A lot of people have trouble with persistent stickfast fleas. It's important to treat not only the birds, but address any problems in the environment. Here's what was said to another member:

The DPI QLD gives good advice about stickfast fleas. You do need to understand the life cycle to understand how to manage them.

Part of the life cycle takes place when the eggs fall to the ground, hatch into larvae and burrow into the soil. If the ground in the coop is impervious, then that helps to break the cycle. The larvae need to be able to burrow down 15cm into the soil. Whatever you put under the perches or in the coop area can prevent this happening. Concrete is ideal because they can't burrow through.

http://www.dpi.qld.gov.au/cps/rde/dpi/h ... A_HTML.htm
Quote:
Scientific name - Echidnophaga gillinacea

Description and distribution -
Stickfast fleas are easy to recognise, being reddish-brown and smaller than other fleas. They 'stick fast' and don't move around like other fleas. They are seen mainly in warmer areas of Queensland and can survive extremely low temperatures. Stickfast fleas were first recorded in Queensland in 1941 at Boonah, south of Brisbane, and are now widely spread throughout the state.
Infestations on poultry

The most common spot for the flea to attach is the head of poultry. Other sites for infestations are under the wings and on the breast. A heavily infested bird can carry a black mass of fleas on its comb, wattles and behind its head.
On other animals

Stickfast fleas can also infest other birds (ducks, pigeons) as well as cattle, dingoes, kangaroos, rabbits, rats, goats, cats, horses, dogs and sometimes people.

Life cycle -
Understanding the life cycle of the stickfast flea (Echidnophaga gillinacea) makes control methods easier to implement.

The average life cycle is about 4-5 weeks depending on seasonal conditions. The cycle starts with the attached female laying eggs, usually during night time. Adult fleas live for about 6 weeks on the host laying approximately 12 eggs per night. These eggs fall to the ground and hatch into larvae that feed on ground litter. Approximately 2-4 weeks later the larvae burrow into the soil to a depth of 15 cm and form a cocoon. An adult flea emerges from this cocoon within 2-3 weeks depending on temperature and humidity. Adult fleas unable to find a suitable host, can only survive for a short period.
Control and treatment

Control and treatment go hand-in-hand. Contact your produce agent or veterinarian to obtain insecticide registered for stickfast flea control. Follow the manufacturer's instructions for application.

Infested birds should be sprayed with an insecticide. Destroy all litter or articles harbouring the flea. For poultry infestations ensure you treat their housing facilities. This parasite is not easily eradicated from backyard poultry houses or free-ranging poultry farms that do not have impervious flooring. Impervious floors are necessary for breaking the life cycle as they deny larvae the ability to burrow 15 cm into the soil to form a cocoon.

The treatment of birds and their housing should be repeated until the infestation is completely controlled. This may be needed at weekly intervals, but must be in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions.


This is a little different, but on the eye issue, in a past life I was teaching piano and one of my students had to have some time off due to head lice. I was quite amazed that his head lice (pediculosis) was so bad that he had nits attached to many of the fine body hairs especially down his back, and particularly in the upper centre part along his spine and across his shoulders. He also had them attached to the hairs in his eyebrows. The worst was the nits attached to the base of the eyelashes. I'm sure they have better chemical treatments now, but at that point in history they could not put any medication so close to his eyes to treat it, and the nits also needed to be removed. The poor kid had to go to hospital, have a general and have his whole body treated, including having his eyelashes pulled out. It's the worst I've ever seen.

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