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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 9:00 pm 
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Swan
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yeah sorry to hear that you had to let him go to chook heaven :( learning stuff every day from this forums.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 9:05 pm 
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Cathy - so sorry - but that sounds like what the vet eventually found Lucy to have and pathology confirmed. That last photo is looking more like how hers was earlier on when it was being treated with antibiotics. You gave him your best shot... :(


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 11:34 pm 
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Ohh that is sad. Poor boy, but I think you gave him the best shot possilbe and then did what needed to be done.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:28 am 
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Can you send them to me via email... I would be very interested in seeing what was under the swelling also..

Email please.. will pm you with my email address.

He was a lovely boy ... so sad

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 7:50 am 
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I've sent them to you in two emails Sandy.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:02 pm 
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Got them thanks Cathy..

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:48 pm 
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So Cathy, after your OH did his dissecting (or you both did), did you come to any further conclusions as to what it was, where it was, the substance? Maybe find a better angle you could have cut in on? Further involvement you could not see from the outside?
Just interested.

Sorry to hear about the little guy.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 3:16 pm 
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What did you think, Sandy?

Samiiz, I'm no pathologist, so I'm hoping to get a second opinion from Sandy. The lump was consistent all the way through. No pus at all. Just pink rubbery flesh. It had grown into the rear part of the cavity under the eye. It wouldn't have mattered where we cut, nothing was going to come out, and nothing would have been achieved. We opened the healthy side to compare, and the muscle there was very small, soft and you could see the long strands of muscle tissue and also the tendons that work the jaw. The lump, on the other hand, was big, rubbery and thick in texture. There was no tissue that looked like stranded muscle tissue. It was more blobby (excuse the technical term). I am suspicious that it was some kind of tumour or at least abnormal growth. Surely it wasn't normal swollen tissue. I really don't know, so I'm hoping Sandy has seen it before, and can shed some light on it. Antibiotics would not have helped. There was no odour, nothing that looked like infection. His mouth looked and smelt completely healthy and normal.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 4:26 pm 
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Cathy

Send them to me as well - I have done a lot of histopathology and although I am not good at tumour tissue types microscopically I am good at macro examinations.

Also send them to Stella as well - I will give you both emails by PM

Mike

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 5:34 pm 
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Like you Cathy I felt that there was no real infection happening... just swelling of the muscle and surrounding tissue...

To remove it would have taken its toll on the birds health ... had you allowed it to survive.

I also think that stronger antibiotics given for a length of time may have seen the swelling go down over time...

I'm not convinced it was a tumor or growth to be honest... the tissue just didn't look like what I'd seen on other birds with tumors and growths... and I would have thought it would have been much more solid to be a tumor or growth.. but without tests I guess we will never know..

It certainly looked very nasty on the outside and I probably would have put the bird down also if it had been mine... and done a pm on it as you did..

When my rooster became very sick (only ever had one rooster here) ... I put him down and did a pm on him... really glad I did .. learning a lot from it .. cancer growth on his leg had gone into the bone structure and muscle of his entire leg... sad.. didn't have a camera or I would have taken pictures...

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 7:31 pm 
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Thanks for your opinion Sandy, I can see why you say that. The colour of the tissue was the same as muscle tissue. There was only a textural difference. It wasn't going down. It was increasing in size. Why do you think that was happening?

No I haven't got pictures of the organs etc. I went to get the carcase but it's 'disappeared' somehow. I suspect a few local predators.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 7:54 pm 
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Cathy

The latter photos certainly show the anatomy of the sinus under the eyes - in a human its the sinus cavernus for obvious reasons.

Now the growth - that indistinct greyish matter to me is a neoplasm off some sort. Muscle tissue would have striations and a distinct structure even swollen. There is just not definition of tissue, just a mass. The blood supply vessels is also typical - a tumour needs nutrients to grow but the blood vessels are also random - again neoplastic.

See what Stella calls - she has more recent experience but I call it a tumour.

I totally agree though - its not an infective process. No granualtion of chessy exudate.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 8:11 pm 
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Thanks for your opinion Mike. Having examined the area like that, I can certainly understand those swollen infected eye problems now. The waxy exudate must fill that entire cavity. No wonder pressing in under the eye is sometimes effective at moving the plug. It's quite educational to do these things if you have the stomach for it.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 8:23 pm 
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Just spoke with Stella - she is about to head back to work for an emergency consult.

I will forward your emails to her work for her opinon

Mike

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 11:47 pm 
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Chicken07 wrote:
Thanks for your opinion Sandy, I can see why you say that. The colour of the tissue was the same as muscle tissue. There was only a textural difference. It wasn't going down. It was increasing in size. Why do you think that was happening?

No I haven't got pictures of the organs etc. I went to get the carcase but it's 'disappeared' somehow. I suspect a few local predators.


Without a test to find out what caused this to happen Cathy hard to make a guess at what the cause or why it kept on increasing.. apart from the swelling of the area.. bit like a sting of some sort ... I come up in huge welts that take ages to go down and they are as hard as a tumor would be for at least a week or more

Ive actually given birds antihistamine to reduce swelling ... and its worked.. but not saying this was the case with your boy...

Maybe Stella can give more information seeing as she see this sort of thing with her work..

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