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 Post subject: canker
PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 7:56 pm 
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Dapper Duck
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Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2008 4:20 pm
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Location: Burra Creek, NSW
I seem to be having a bad run at the moment, maybe my husbandry is questionable :oops:
I have a Light sussex hen that I discovered on the weekend with a canker in her mouth.'Yuk!
Cheesy looking, hard white hard pus. I checked the A-Z diseases list and started her on Metronidazole yesterday. The lump came out with a cotton bud today, relief :thumbs: so will continue with the medication for another 3 days. She is bright, drinking, eating, red comb, normal poo.
I removed her from her mates but as they are sharing water what dose of metronidazole should I give them? For how long?
Di

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 Post subject: Re: canker
PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 9:31 pm 
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Old Mother Goose
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Is it Emtryl you are using?
Let me know by 7 am tomorrow and I will check the dose for you.
Photos of the oral lesions would be great for those that haven't seen them, but if its dropped off and there are no shots available, well, sigh - so be it.
Keep us posted.

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 Post subject: Re: canker
PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 10:28 am 
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Dapper Duck
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Thanks Meredith, that would be great. No, it is Metrogyl 400, human equivalent of Flagyl and I used 1/8th of a tablet, tricky, but it was all I had.
Sorry,I didn't think to get photos of the lesion, would have been a good reference I guess, damn, I threw it out.
She is much brighter today and happily eating some mash.
Di

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 Post subject: Re: canker
PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 10:00 am 
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Dapper Duck
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Location: Burra Creek, NSW
Hi Meredith, just wondering if you had any luck with the dose rate of the Metronidazole.
My boss has given me some that is in a saline solution that is 500mg in 100ml, meant for I.V that he uses in cows. What do you think? He confesses to not knowing anything about chooks :)
My girl has another lesion already in her mouth, so sounds to me like she will need a longer dose. I'll get a photo of it this time, I still have her separated.
Where do the Trichomonas come from?
Thanks Di

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 Post subject: Re: canker
PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 3:19 pm 
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Old Mother Goose
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Here is a bit of info about Trich. basically its a protozoa that commonly lives in pigeons throats, chooks are likely to get it from water contaminated by the pigeons.

Trichomoniasis
Definition
Trichomoniasis is a disease of the upper digestive tract, seen in pigeons, doves, raptors, turkeys, chickens as well as many other wild birds.
Occurrence
Trichomoniasis (Trich. For short) occurs frequently in pigeons and doves, as well as raptors which feed upon them. The disease is called canker in pigeons and frounce in falcons. With the current improved management practices in the poultry industry trichomoniasis is not common in turkeys and chickens. Outbreaks usually occur in warm climates or during warm weather.
Etiology
The etiological agent of trichomoniasis is Trichomonas gallinae (Tg). Tg is a pear-shaped flagellated protozoan with 4 anterior flagella and an undulating membrane to provide motility.
The life cycle of Tg is very simple; it divides by longitudinal binary fission.
Transmission
Nearly all pigeons are carriers of Tg. The pathogenicity of the different strains of Tg is very variable. Adult pigeons transfer the organism to squabs via the "pigeon milk".
Raptors often contract trichomoniasis by eating infected pigeons and doves.
Turkeys and chickens contract the disease by drinking stagnant surface water containing T. gallinae . Pigeons are believed to be the most common vector by which the water supplies are contaminated.
Clinical signs
Affected birds may have difficulty closing their mouths and may drool and make repeated swallowing movements.
Severely affected birds will stop eating, become depressed, ruffled in appearance, and emaciated before death.
Lesions
Lesions are seen in the mouth, sinuses, pharynx, esophagus, crop, and proventriculus.
Typical lesions are white to yellow plaques or raised masses.
Diagnosis
Gross lesions are very suggestive of trichomoniasis but are not unlike those seen with visceral pox, candidiasis, and hypovitaminosis A.
histopathology of the lesions will help distinguish trichomoniasis from the above diseases.
The presence of large numbers of trichomonads in the oral fluids is usually considered confirmatory. A wet mount of fresh oral fluids will reveal the motile trichomonads when examined microscopically.
Prevention
Eliminate any carrier birds as they will contaminate the waterers with Tg.
Provide clean fresh water and eliminate sources of stagnant water.
Avoid contact between pigeons and doves and susceptible poultry.
A low preventative level of protozoacide can be fed in the ration or in the drinking water. Agents that have been used are dimetridazole (Emtryl), nithiazide (Hepzide) and Enheptin.
Treatment
Several drugs have been used to treat trichomoniasis including Emtryl (dimetridazole), aminonitrothiazole, and Enheptin. These drugs are no longer available for use in the U.S.A.
Back yard flocks or pigeons not used for food production may be effectively treated with dimetridazole by prescription of a veterinarian (1000 mg/L in drinking water for 5-7 days).


The only references I can find re a dose of Flagyl - is 50mg for a pigeon for 3 days and 60mg/kg for a bird for 5 days
I was quite surprised by the strength of the dose, but birds often do need much higher doses of antibiotics than other species.
So for a 2kg chook I would give 1/4 of a 400mg flagyl daily, if its 3kg + then 1/2 tablet daily.
I think the soluble stuff your vet has would be difficult as she would have to drink 25ml of it and if its in saline it probably wouldn't taste too good.

Oh and the with-holding period of Emtryl is 5 days just for interest sake.
Not sure about the flagyl but I would do 7 days.
Sorry I took a while to get back to you on this.
Hope its some help

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 Post subject: Re: canker
PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 5:07 pm 
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Dapper Duck
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Location: Burra Creek, NSW
That's wonderful thanks Meredith, yes I think I will stick to the crushing up of the tablets, ti is not to hard to dropper it into her mouth. I shall do the other Sussex as a precaution for 7 days too.
Not sure where they are getting it from, they have fresh water every day and while the native birds visit, I haven't seen the bronze wing pigeons for awhile. Their yard is clean, maybe her immune system is not up to scratch? :?
Cheers Di.

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 Post subject: Re: canker
PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 5:30 pm 
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Golden Robin
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Trichomonas is basically an oprtunistic organism. It occurs in humans (different sort though) as well and often without a specific reason.

It may well pay to give the birds some ricket's diet or canned cat food as a supplement for a week or two just to give the birds some condition.

Mike

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 Post subject: Re: canker
PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 5:41 pm 
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Dapper Duck
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Location: Burra Creek, NSW
Ok, thanks again Mike, hadn't thought of that. They get layer mash in the mornings with bandsaw dust, milk powder and a sprinkle of livermol. They have access to layer pellets, via a grandpa's feeder and get a cracked corn scratch in the afternoon, but happy to add the extra. It is cold here and they have all just finished moulting.
Cheers Di.

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 Post subject: Re: canker
PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 1:30 pm 
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Dapper Duck
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Location: Burra Creek, NSW
Hi Guys, just thought you might be interested in these photos of the canker lesion that came out on Sunday. I'm having to clean some of this out every day. She is still bright but sick of me and sick of flagyl. :| Image
Image
Cheers Di.

edited so that the pics display under each other.
C'07

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 Post subject: Re: canker
PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 1:56 pm 
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Site Administrator
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Eeeeeww!

Nasty but great shots - thanks for showing us. A lot of people would never have seen it.

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 Post subject: Re: canker
PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 3:49 pm 
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Golden Swan
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Definitely Eeeeewwww! But I haven't seen it before so it is good to see. Thanks for taking them.

NellyG

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 Post subject: Re: canker
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 11:08 am 
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Dapper Duck
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Location: Burra Creek, NSW
Definitely an 'ICKY' photo, sorry.
I am becoming a bit concerned as today is day5 on the Flagyl and I'm not seeing a strong response yet,am I being impatient?
After re-reading the note on Trichomoniasis I'm starting to wonder if I'm doing the right thing. Should this bird be culled? She is still in quarantine, that is not the issue. IF this clears up will she remain a carrier? I am happy to continue treating as long as I'm not putting the rest of my flock at risk, bad enough with Marek's hanging over my head. Is it time to try a different medication? CONCERNED.
Di

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 Post subject: Re: canker
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 5:00 pm 
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Golden Robin
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Di

I will let Stella or one of our other vets comment as I am getting a bit out of date and not in touch with the later antibiotics. But I did always think the metronidazole was the drug of choice for trichs etc. It does build up a titre level in the blood stream and stays residual for a little while.

At the end of the day, with any antibiotic, its really the animals own immune systems and responses that destroy the infection. Antibiotics merely halt the rate of infection so the body systems can kick in.

To do this the animal has to have what it takes. This is part of the reason that animals (and people) fail to respond to antibiotic treatments even though the antibiotic chosen is effective against the infective organism.

I think you may have to hang on in there and continue to pump up the birds with rickets diet and canned cat food. I said in the beginning that trichomonas are an oppotunistic organism and it is probable that this bird has some underlying medical condition.

Mike

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 Post subject: Re: canker
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 7:10 pm 
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Dapper Duck
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Location: Burra Creek, NSW
Thanks Mike, happy to hang in there together with ricketts diet etc. I understand what you mean about the immune system as we see it all the time with the cats and dogs and I guess that's why I'm asking myself this question.
Di

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 Post subject: Re: canker
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 8:16 pm 
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Old Mother Goose
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Very quick, brief reply.
Any chance of getting hold of some Emtryl??

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