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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 6:50 am 
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Proud Rooster
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Condensation on the Outside of the Set

It's fine to ask any questions on the forum Lacey ... It is precisely why we have this thread.
We are here to help one another and I like it that we can discuss everyone's feedback here ... and that the information will still be here to find next winter.

Breeders from Tasmania and Victoria have asked the exact same question.
It has to do with the ambient conditions Lacey, nothing to do with what is going on inside the set.
The double-glazed window is not as efficient an insulator as the case.
Also, the area behind the switch panel has the insulation removed

Bob Peel

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 6:50 am 
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Roostertail wrote:
Well today I set up our E2 ... We have a digital humidity and temperature gauge to give us independent readings as well as a wet bulb thermometer ...


This is copied here from the thread Greatlander Trial

Hello Katy

An early hatch does fit-in with elevated temp.

I see in a previous post something about a digital thermometer/hygrometer in the E2.
Is this like one of those wireless handheld instruments we discussed on day one or two?
You could pop it in the 2T to cross-check the temp at the eggs.

For members following this trial, there is a passage in the manual about cross-checking the temp at start-up with such an instrument (I also sell an inexpensive one)

In addition, if required with 2T there is provision to calibrate the sensor(s) to change the `reading' so it reads the actual.

The temp sensor lives high up in the set where it does lifeguard duty over the electrics should the main fan fail and must not be moved.
The main fan is continuously mixing the air keeping it all at an equal temperature.
A cross-check can pick up any small instrument errors as well as any small air-circulation issues. Temp at the eggs is what matters.

As an aside ...
To check the humidity sensor you need a plastic bag and a tablespoon of salt.
Wet the salt enough so it clumps, put the sensor in the bag and pinch shut.
It should read 70% +/- a tiny margin.


Bob Peel

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 6:51 am 
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The wireless thermometer/hygrometer looks like this. Here is a link to the page on our website
http://greatlander.com.au/index.php?mai ... ucts_id=45


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Bob Peel wrote:
clucks n ducks wrote:
Hi All,

Re temperature calibration. I found that trial & error was the only way to get both our units working at best performance.
After trying a fairly wide range of thermometers to try & get the temp spot on (I work for a company involved in refrigeration), I found that every thermometer used read differently.
To get the best out of our T4 I set the temp at 37.3 - this is for the ducks.
To get the best out of our T3 it is set at 37.8 - this is for the chicks.
I have tried both units at slightly higher & lower temps & the hatch rate declines the further away from these settings I get.

Greg

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 6:53 am 
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This is a link that takes you to a 2010 technical paper titled Meeting embryonic requirements of broilers throughout incubation: a review
http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S1516-635X2010000300001&script=sci_arttext

Another paper, (I can find it - I make storage cabinets for commercial breeders & I subscribe to several commercial-poultry resources) discusses the benefits of pre-conditioniong the eggs prior to triggering incubation proper, (30oC - 55%RH - 6 Hrs) as one stategy to diminish the duration of the hatch-window (24 hours being the limit for a busy commercial enterprise).

Another (I can find it) discusses the benefits of a short burst (discusses up to 24 hrs) at incubating temp soon after lay and prir to storage, to initiate, then arrest embryonic development so it better withstands storage and handling with measurable improvements on hatch rate.

I'll put this post in the Greatlander Questions & Answers thread if anyone is interested to see more.

Bob Peel

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 6:53 am 
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Hi Bob,
There appears to be rust or something similar coloured, coming off the heater element, which has made the water awfully dirty, would you clean it out or just leave it, is this normal and will it settle after a short period, Let me know if you want me to take a pic of it for you.

Otherwise it is running perfectly.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 6:54 am 
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Yes

We discuss this in the manual Lacey. It is a water-quality issue.

A breeder's hubby who has a pool business advises putting a few grains of pool chlorine in the gravity bucket. That fixes rust.

Others may have calcium build-up ... vinegar or lemon juice will fix that apparently.

This is not my area of expertise Lacey ... sparkies stay well away from plumbing.

About it being harmful, the answer is no.
The element heats the water around it just enough to vaporise it, creating humidity.
The impurities remain safely behind

Bob Peel

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 6:54 am 
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I did read that in the manual, but I obviously misunderstood, I thought it meant dirty water being fed in through mains, as I have a gravity feed bin set up with lovely clean water, I was wondering what was happening there.
I will just put some chlorine in and see how that works.
Thanks Bob.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 6:57 am 
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Bob Peel wrote:
Hello Ben

I read your bit about the sensor touching an egg and that you were wondering if you were taking its temperature instead of the air's.

We did a bunch of similar tests for the `top hatch' project earlier this year using 3 sensors plus the sets' sensors in 2T, 3T, 4T, 5T and 6T (Yeah I'm just watching you here)
We tied off one sensor well above the eggs in the middle of the top rail of the carriage, tied one well below the eggs in the middle of the bottom rail and tied one to the back top edge of the hatching basket which was beneath a baffle in the hatching chamber. Not all the tests were done with eggs and none with late embryo eggs nor did we hatch chicks - we were concentrating more on air circulation and the conditions in the hatching chamber.

Plotted in Excel the 2T at one end (with its smallest volume) had the widest spread 0.4oC in the top chamber and the hatching chamber 0.3oC cooler, while at the other end of the scale 6T had half that in the top chamber 0.2C, and the hatching chamber also 0.3oC cooler. Our 0.4C spread in `Top Hatch' was only sligthtly narrower than your latest 0.5oC spread in 2T, our load was different. RH was maintained at 55% throughout.

Hope this helps


Bob Peel
http://www.greatlander.com.au


The top and bottom rails are the two pivot points and by tying the probes to them it stops them from going see-saw in the set. This smooths the spread.
The probes will also be in the equal temp fan's draught and held a set distance away from the eggs' thermal mass, measuring true air temps.
If you measure in the hatching basket, aim to measure along the back edge near the left hand corner, away from the element, beyond the edge of the tray, and away from the water inlet which lets in a slight draught. Unless of course when you do want to check what the element is up to, in which case do what I do and keep a wireless therm/hygro right above it for a quick visual.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 6:58 am 
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If it is the water heater element that is causing concern when it comes on after opening the door and sending the air temp up along with the water temp rise in order to vaporise, I always advise a short light spray to replace the lost humidity before closing the door.

If the air temp heater element is causing concern when it comes on after opening the door and destabilising the air temp, (temp `hunting' too high and too low, vent fan cutting in and out) I always advise to watch how long it takes for the temp to re-stabilise. If it is not stablising quickly enough (enough for the temporary average temp to impact the egg's thermal mass) I can recommend measures ... e.g. adjusting the venting arrangements, or switching the set off and on at the wall while heat builds, preventing the element from gaining more heat than the set temp ...

Of course we all know that eggs from day 12 onward are progressively `hotter' than the incubator's set temp, so the incubator is cooling them rather than warming them.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 6:58 am 
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There is a trial ongoing on this forum at present of a Greatlander 2T, used as a multi-stage chicken incubator and hatcher.
At the same time, the first sets of Top Hatch have started going out, the smallest this week being a 3TTH (3 Tray Top Hatch)

Prompted by the 2T Trial, I placed probes in the exact same locations in 3TTH ... and I can report that all our hard work has been justified.
For months I pestered many experienced breeders exchanging ideas, some are members of this forum, you know who you are and I can't thank you enough

Top Hatch has several factors at play simultaneously ... such that it is more of a `breakaway concept' than `improvements'
- The heated water tray is now at the top of the set, out of the equation
- The main fan in Top Hatch sends its stream at a 45o angle down the left side of the set, air returns up the right side (we tested other options)
- On the top right, a baffle beneath the water tray can slide across, to `train' the return air in varying quantities as desired
- A novel segregated hatching chamber creates a baffle, separating the setting chamber from the hatching chamber
- Two fans draw air down into the hatching chamber at its rear
- Two filtered ports return this air at the front
- A passive water tray (unheated) is optionally used beneath the hatching basket to manipulate humidity, independently of the heated top tray.

There are some obvious benefits
- Moving the water heater to the top of the set addressed several issues in one
- Quadraxial mixing of the air in the set comes in as a close number two
- A second passive water tray increases options and capability
- We have a far cleaner egg-setting chamber ... and a hatching chamber containment for chick-mess and with chick fluff filters
- And much-improved access to the working parts of the set for cleaning/maintenance

Some of the less obvious improvements are
- A longer cord on the RH sensor ... for taking readings in the hatching chamber at times
- A better float valve (I found a mini with articulated-geometry)
- Sealed limit switches

Bob Peel

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 6:59 am 
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Zebs wrote:
Well the bad news for Bob is that today we ordered at T4 top hatch to pick up whilst at Brisbane Royal, he has no idea what he is in for, l feel sorry for him already, technically challenged people are always technically challenged,

But thanks Bob, looking forward to it now. Just rang a bloke and he can sell my E2 so all good here.

Just FYI, we rang today to another company on the Maru 380 and the lovely lady said they should not be used for hatching in :shoc as they had a few return to be cleaned with the sensors and dandy and fluff problems, now I am sure i read they had only been released last july, and that did concern me, also when asked about hatching trays, they dont stock them so concerned are they about people hatching in them. Whilst i appreciated her openess and honesty it was not the machine I was looking for.


Chick Fluff - electrical shorts and fire risks
Chick fluff is an excellent conductor and a major concern to electrical equipment.
Greatlander has taken chick-fluff risks seriously by designing out risk and by issuing cautions

The fans accelerate the tiny particles and they end up in absolutely everything.
The fluff is filaments of protein which readily form strings that can over-bridge long distances, defeating standard-practice electrical design
Chick fluff will cause electrical shorts and has caused electrical fires.
It must be diligently and regularly cleared for your safety and for the safety of your equipment.

With Top Hatch, Greatlander has made a breakaway lead and designed a totally novel range of small to medium machine for the serious breeder
Machines of Australian design that capture chick fluff in filters in a dedicated hatching chamber.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 7:00 am 
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Hatching Quail in a Greatlander

OK
I was explaining to a breeder today about our quail egg trays.

There is a lot of `headroom' between out egg trays, enough to accommodate goose and peafowl eggs.
This space comes in handy when hatching quail.

Our trays have moulded `pins' and `sockets' so they can be clipped together and piggy-backed.

A quail tray holds 221 eggs. So when two trays are clipped together each `row' in a Greatlander can set 442 quail eggs.
We have several commercial Quail growers running multiple large Greatlanders with great success

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 7:01 am 
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Calibrating the temperature probe in a Greatlander Egg Incubator or Hatcher

OK

A note on calibrating your temp probe: This feature’s purpose I think is not always fully understood
It has nothing to do with calibrating the probe for its accuracy ... so it agrees with some arbitrary value
And it has everything to do with calibrating the probe to agree with an accurately measured temp at the eggs

Just unplug the water element and measure the air temp at the egg rack with one or two reliable thermometers
Wait until the incubator has warmed up properly, that the metal lining and metal egg rack etc are up to temp
Then calibrate for a match.

The calibration value (as the other P & F values) will need to be re-entered if the set does an automatic re-start

The probe in a Greatlander incubator reads the temp of the air where it is located ...
... at the top of the set doing lifeguard duty on the electronics should the fan fail or is accidentally left off.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 7:02 am 
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Hi Bob,
The 2T has been going great guns.
I have a small issue since I have moved, when I set it back up, the water was all but overflowing, I moved the float around a little and now it is almost to empty, not exposing the element but not far off.

What is the easiest way to adjust it to get the right level, it is bugging me at the moment, as everything I have tried isn't working.

I'm wondering if I might have stuffed it when we moved.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 7:03 am 
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Lacey the first thing I would do is make sure the float valve is allowing the water in by holding the valve open. If the water is coming in with sufficient pressure, then the jet is not blocked by dirt and may just need adjusting. If the jet is partially blocked by dirt, then this will stop you from correctly adjusting the float valve height.

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