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 Post subject: Upgrading an E1
PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 9:46 pm 
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Superior Bird
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The task is to upgrade an E1 incubator for a client who has used the incubator for a long time with reasonable success. It is the basic model with a light globe, wafer thermostat and a lever to turn the egg racks.
The things he is not happy with are;
Having to be at home all the time to turn the eggs and to make sure the globe hasn't blown.
Light globes do blow and are becoming harder to replace and find in his part of the world.
The variation in temperature throughout the incubator and the fluctuations as the outside temperature changes.

Whilst the temperature requirements of all poultry is the same some breeds seem less robust and less tolerant to variations in incubation temperature. For whatever reason I have had a number of serious breeders report they are able to hatch most breeds brilliantly in E1's but always struggle with their modern game.
Originally it was this guys plan to switch to an 120 egg auto everything incubator I make as a few people in his area have done (one guy has bought 3) successfully and are now happy with how their moderns hatch. I managed to talk him into keeping his E1 which is a well made cabinet and allow me to bring it up to scratch in the other areas.

It was always the intention to fit a microprocessor circuit I make to run the incubator. But I thought it might be useful to just use the three temperature sensors and the circuits ability to interface with my computer to just watch and learn as I made a few changes which might help others.

For those familiar with the E1, the heat source is at the top and all the air is blown down one side (the RH) and returns up the LH side. In a design such as this it is almost impossible to get really good even temperature throughout.

Image

Over the course of a couple of days of moving the 3 sensors around I identified 3 main areas.

The orange area to the right is where the warmer air stream is coming pretty much straight off the fan. The air here is very directional or laminar and not a lot of mixing or turbulence occurs here. Thus the air here is always warmer than other parts of the incubator. Unfortunately the 2 most right hand rows of eggs sit in this airstream so thats 36 odd eggs always in the warmest part of the incubator.

The blue area is the bulk of the incubator space and 2/3 of the eggs. Temperature is pretty much the same throughout this area. What is important is the part of the incubator marked above as point A. This is where the original L shaped thermometer goes. If you use this point as manufacturer recommends when setting your thermostat then you pretty much sure all the blue area above is very close.

The green area is down the bottom of the incubator where the hatching tray goes. It is lower than the blue area, as you'd expect but hatching chicks are more tolerant of slightly cooler temperatures.

All of the temperature readings are done whilst the incubator is inside in my study with the temperature pretty much between 17 and 20 degs.

The next diagram/graph shows how adding extra heat source at the bottom of the incubator goes a long way to fixing the variations of temperature within the incubator.

Where the sensor is at point/s C is of most concern to me. The sensor is actually placed on the egg rack at the second most right hand row of eggs. With the original wafer and light globe only there is a significant difference between there and point A. So while one is carefully optimising the temperature at point A you always have eggs sitting in an area that is warmer than this.
Eggs tolerate being a bit cool more than a bit warm so it always pays to be aware of what is happening in the warmest area.

Image
To the left of the above diagram is the incubator as is, over a period of about 18 hrs. 160W of light globe up the top. Areas A and B aren't much different but the right hand side eggs are warmer than the other eggs.
I am slightly concerned the average temperature of all of them is increasing slightly after this much time, but I would expect it to either level out with time or it could be just be the outside temp varying.

The middle part of the graph shows the same sensors when 2 x 25W elements have been added down the bottom of the incubator, they are under the control of the wafer. The areas A and B are now almost indistinguishable but by far the most improvement is how much closer area C is to the others. That area runs a lot cooler now that not all the heating power is coming from the top and moving down the RHS.

The right hand side of the graph shows what is close to the finished job. I mounted a large ceramic element at top of the incubator. I did try to see what the wafer could do with it but it was pretty awful. It isn't the element you buy from Multiquip by the way.
The large top element is controlled by a sensor mounted at pt A and the bottom elements controlled by the sensor at point B. The third sensor has been shifted around the incubator and it is always corresponding to what the others say. So I moved it up into the top area just to see whats going on.

In larger incubators having a heat source both top and bottom is just plain common sense.
For those who are building an incubator based on the E1 you need to be very careful. If you look closely at the E1 you will notice that a lot more light finds it way down the left hand side of the incubator than the right hand side due to the fan shroud thingo. This does help to redress the balance between the left and right hand sides a bit.

Image


Last edited by Denis on Sun Jul 03, 2011 11:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Upgrading an E1
PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 10:17 pm 
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Proud Rooster
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Some people are just to clever. :thumbs:

VERY INTERESTING :transform:

Might have to put the thinking cap on and come up to speed with the

modern technology. :nail:

I have had some very different hatch rates with all my incubators some brilliant, :chicks:

some very dismal results :upset: mostly with different breeds or breeders . :hmmm:

This new technology would work well in my E2 hatcher as it has electronic temp settings

and the two globes blink like indicators an a car all day and night, been thinking of

converting back to a waffer, did this for a friend on an E3 and it works fine,

Certainly brain food Denis :claps:

Might catch up when next in your town Denis


Cheers Stacka :bolt:

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 Post subject: Re: Upgrading an E1
PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 12:21 am 
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Junior Champion Bird
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Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2008 3:00 pm
Posts: 653
Location: NSW
Hi Denis,

your analysis is quite interesting.

Denis wrote:
I am slightly concerned the average temperature of all of them is increasing slightly after this much time, but I would expect it to either level out with time or it could be just be the outside temp varying.
Including the "2 x 25W elements" has corrected the positive gradient of the moving average, which implies that the primary heat source (160W) was too small for the system.
To test this, the middle graph could be repeated with the "2 x 25W elements" added to the top of the incubator, again "under the control of the wafer". ie. only one variable at a time is modified - in this case, the magnitude of the top heat source.

Denis wrote:
The areas A and B are now almost indistinguishable but by far the most improvement is how much closer area C is to the others. That area runs a lot cooler now that not all the heating power is coming from the top and moving down the RHS.
Agreed.

In the third part of the graph you have moved the location of Points A and B. What is the motivation for this?.
It's as if you are measuring the warm air temperature, whereas the Multiquip approach was to measure the cold air temperature. In terms of Control Systems, you are measuring the output, which makes sense. This could contribute to the stability depicted in the third part of the graph.
If this is the case, then it's really an impressive modification by you.

It appears that you have overcome the undesirable "variation in temperature throughout the incubator". :thumbs:

How about the undesirable "fluctuations as the outside temperature changes" :?: .

I find your project fascinating and I do not even own a Multiquip/Multiplo.


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 Post subject: Re: Upgrading an E1
PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 6:10 am 
Haan wrote:
Hi Denis,
... which implies that the primary heat source (160W) was too small for the system.

I find your project fascinating and I do not even own a Multiquip/Multiplo.


I did actually say exactly this... that the standard heat source is 200W.

Please allow me to point out a few things in the name of constructive critisism:
You stated previously (since removed) that a 100W and a 60W globe were used up top.
Your customer will encounter these problems:

1) 100W globes havent been available for quite some time, so all of this testing will be worthless when it is replaced with the now most powerful 75W globe,
2) The 60W by itself can not sustain temperature in an E1, and in fact a 100W can't either- by a fair margin. Hence the reason i have not gone to two smaller globes yet, after my tests, so the customer's incubator has become one which you can not leave- if one globe blows, the incubator will go stone cold in an hour, defeating the purpose of installing 2 globes in the first place.
3) A HD 200W globe has a longer life than an incandescent household globe. So since you have 2 in there which will most probably blow before the original multiquip one, neither of which can maintain incubator temperature by itself, you have modified the incubator so it is MORE than TWICE as likely to fail and destroy every egg and hatched chick inside.
4) Your extra heating element brings the total power draw to more than an original E1.

By far the better choice for a reliable heat source would have been a multiquip element up top aswell, considering its now running digi temp control, and that is no big deal to swap over, but would just need re-testing.

As i mentioned earlier, a good test involves a standard "benchmark" incubator to compare results with. Without that, it is hard for anyone to relate to, as you have tinkered with someone else's frankenstein incubator.

As for 200W globes being hard to come by, you can place an internet order and receive as many globes as you like in a few days from the supplier? In fact i just bought 9 of them from a guy for $7.50 each thru Auctioneer here- not far off the price of little household globes. Bargain! :D

Anyway, to avoid further head-knocking, I'll keep my Multiquip tests and experiences of actually owning a few over the years to myself and keep getting 95% hatch rate on all breeds, and you can keep improving them for whatever it is you are looking for. You wont improve on the reliability, and by refining the circulation of a more consistant temperature you are absolutely wasting your time as it simply isnt needed in Multiplo/Multiquips. Maybe improving cheap little ones that have poor hatching rates could be time more well spent.

Successfully hatching a few hundred chicks thru mine teaches you a few things.


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 Post subject: Re: Upgrading an E1
PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 11:23 pm 
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Junior Champion Bird
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Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2008 3:00 pm
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Location: NSW
Denis wrote:
The right hand side of the graph shows what is close to the finished job. I mounted a large ceramic element at top of the incubator. I did try to see what the wafer could do with it but it was pretty awful. It isn't the element you buy from Multiquip by the way.

Ruffled Feathers,
denis replaced the top incandescent globes with "a large ceramic element at top of the incubator", hence your unnecessary "criticism" of the use of "100W and a 60W" incandescent globes is not "constructive".
.
.
.
Also, perhaps you should also read the following part of the original post again:
Denis wrote:
The task is to upgrade an E1 incubator for a client who has used the incubator for a long time with reasonable success. It is the basic model with a light globe, wafer thermostat and a lever to turn the egg racks.
The things he is not happy with are;
Having to be at home all the time to turn the eggs and to make sure the globe hasn't blown.
Light globes do blow and are becoming harder to replace and find in his part of the world.
The variation in temperature throughout the incubator and the fluctuations as the outside temperature changes.
(emphasis added)

It is clear that Denis is not "looking for" a reason to improve the incubator. He is fulfilling his client's request.
This can hardly be considered "absolutely wasting your time".
.
.
.
Ruffled Feathers wrote:
Anyway, to avoid further head-knocking, I'll keep my tests and experiences of actually owning a few over the years to myself
Nobody has requested you do this. The forum exists precisely to share tests and experiences of Backyard Poultry, so please continue to contribute, in the spirit of Chicken07's request.


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 Post subject: Re: Upgrading an E1
PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 12:32 pm 
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Denis, this is an interesting goal you have set yourself, did you find solutions to the problems you outlined? I can't help but think there is something about the small size of the modern game eggs that is making them harder to hatch. My current thinking is that the shallower egg depth in a small egg is causing them to loose too much moisture. I also get the feeling that egg shell thickness might not be so great in Moderns. In any case you could try running the humidity a bit higher in the E1 and see if it improves things. The broody hens coat the eggs with natural oils from their skin which helps prevent too much moisture loss and further seals the eggs from contamination. Experience tells that with the hard to hatch breeds, its usually a humidity problem.

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 Post subject: Re: Upgrading an E1
PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 5:54 pm 
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Ol' Bustard
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My E-1 has been modified quite heavily and has dual wiring that takes two 200 watt globes. I have a stainless steel liner and have made a thick thermal blanket with apertures controlled by velcro so I can access the incubators. They also stand on they carpet.

My brand new E-2 (never used yet until next fortnight) replaced my manual only unit which was removed by the insurance company after our large floods in March. That unit is fully electronic and auto turn. It has an element *and* a 200 watt globe. I have heard of these units cooking the eggs if the globe blows. Not looking forward to that... That has a brand new 'cloak' as well. 'The wife' has banned incubators from the house so I'm forced to use them in my shed and it gets cold out there this time of year.

Linz :)

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 Post subject: Re: Upgrading an E1
PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 7:28 pm 
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Linz wrote:
I have a stainless steel liner and have made a thick thermal blanket with apertures controlled by velcro so I can access the incubators. They also stand on they carpet.


this sounds interesting, I imagine the stainless makes it very easy to clean. Not sure why you need a thick thermal blanket though? do you put it on in a power cut or is it a permanent fixture? or do you use it to save electricity?

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 Post subject: Re: Upgrading an E1
PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2020 11:46 am 
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Hatchling
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This is all very interesting and has followed my experiences since I purchased my E1 in 1976, my story is as follows,
I hatched many breeds as well as types of poultry guineas, pheasants, peafowl quail, ducks and geese. My biggest problem was maintaining a wafer that was accurate and then allowing for atmospheric pressure,(say Thunder storms) to influence the integrity and accuracy of the micro switch and wafer. This I over came by purchasing an electronic thermo regulator and sensor with digital display from Multiquip, best thing I've done, makes everything so easy.
Once my humidity was set, I found that if I increased the surface area of the water tray I was able to maintain a better level of humidity now that it is set its forget, I did also as is suggested in an earlier post, Placed an insulating cloth basically a folded bed sheet on top of the unit to preserve heat loss and I also cover the whole incubator with another bed sheet, this helps slightly to keep the incubator in its own micro environment the air that is drawn in from the inlet port is fresh and it is warmed by being taken from under the cover, So I have warmed clean air coming into the unit.
I prefer the manual turn as I'm able to check on whether the water level is down or the globe has blown without too much delay which has happened in the past without too much disappointment. I did use 2 globes the heat my E1 and allso the 2 globes gave me more intense heat on the water tray resulting in more humidity, I have since reverted back to 200w Carbon Filament globes from as was earlier suggested Ebay in expensive and only 2 broken in delivery,These globes are long lasting, but none the less are not permanent. I have over the years accumulated all the spare parts I need and a generator, just in case, now that I have it I have never used it for the incubator.
In all My E1 has proved to be a true investment and has produced great results for 45 years, It hatched out 220 chicks this season (March 2020) with I'm guessing 98-99% efficency after the initial 7 day candling to remove in fertile eggs.
Finally I live in southern Victoria My E1 works well for me here (temp-Humidity) It may well not work as well in say Northern Qld.
Good hatching to you all Cheers


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