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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:59 pm 
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Showy Hen
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Chicken07 wrote:
Thanks for the ideas. I looked up the SC300 motor but it was out of stock.
We decided to go with a bigger motor so I ended up ordering a new 12VDC motor from Jaycar. They may be expensive, I know. The torque of the motor is 50kg/cm at 55rpm with a stalling torque of 75kg. The link's here.

I also ordered a speed controller which is here. The potentiometers would have needed extra circuitry to make them suitable, so we decided to get a speed controller where that was already done.

isnt that just going to reduce the voltage to the motor- reducing the speed will only reduce the power, and the torque produced.. by the time you are at a useable speed it wont pull the skin off a rice pudding..
i might be wrong, but lets see...


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:14 pm 
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hellocharlie wrote:
isnt that just going to reduce the voltage to the motor- reducing the speed will only reduce the power, and the torque produced.. by the time you are at a useable speed it wont pull the skin off a rice pudding..
i might be wrong, but lets see...

I hope that's not right. I can't claim to understand the details but the description of the speed controller says that pulse width modulation allows electric motors to start slowly at low rpms while maintaining increased torque. I'm sure there will be some reduction in torque at lower speeds, however I'm told that the drop-off will not be the same as if we were running it through a variable resistor. I'm hoping we will be able to adjust it up to reach a workable level. Even at 10% of the torque the motor should still be well able to do the job.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:04 am 
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If you want something with real torque, use a windscreen wiper motor. They already turn themselves around and have lever big enough to work with.
They will run at much lower voltages but the current is pretty high. I've used them a bit for a remote controlled car to ride a around.
They have serious, serious grunt so could do a lot of damage if you are not careful.

On the issue of plugpacks for the DC BBQ rotisserre motors. The battery's are two D cells so they are designed to do what they do at 3 Volts. But don't underestimate how much current a D cell can deliver compared to a plugpack. I'm pretty sure I did at one stage and found the transformer packed up after a month or so.
I don't actually have a figure of what current ratings etc. for these motors is required. Even if I was to look at the one that has worked in my incubator for several years it is probably not helpful because it would depend on the load and mine is very light.
If someone knows could they please post.

If you have to supply current at a much higher value than a plugpack can supply you can use a SLA battery and use the plugpack as a charger because for so much of the time an autoturner is not drawing any current. Jaycar has an information sheet on how to correctly make a charger.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:47 am 
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Denis wrote:
If you want something with real torque, use a windscreen wiper motor. They already turn themselves around and have lever big enough to work with.

ive had a 1A 3V plug pack running my rotissarie motor now for about 12 weeks solid, turning 90 degrees every 30 minutes.. so far its rocked 2x 36 egg trays stacked over 4000 times with no worries.
as for RPM its about 8rpm no load, reducing to around 6 when trays are fully stacked.

the motors are 3 volt 12000rpm and rated to produce 7.94g/cm of torque.. if you do the math knowing that everytime you half the speed you double the torque, then assume the gearbox is say 50% effiecent you come up with a figure of about 6kg/cm of torque, this is supposed to be a 4kg motor, so the gear box is more like 35 percent...

edited quote for readability.


Last edited by hellocharlie on Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:12 am 
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Junior Champion Bird
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hellocharlie wrote:
I've had a 1A 3V plug pack running my rotissarie motor now for about 12 weeks solid, turning 90 degrees every 30 minutes"

Do you have a link to details/prices of the motors?.
How do you control the motor so it only turns 90°?.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:25 am 
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When we looked at rotisserie motors we noticed that you couldn't easily control the direction of movement if it was an AC motor. The other thing we noticed was that they are all rated differently. The stronger ones are far more expensive. The one we have here was about $50. Unless you can recycle something or pick one up for chips at a junk shop, we thought we might as well just buy something that suited directly.

If you are using a 3V DC motor you can control the degreee of turn using microswitches which cut off when your tray reaches where you want. A switch will cut the circuit. You can restart the turner using a timer.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:40 am 
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the one i use is 25 bucks at bunnings..ourdoor magic..

Haan.. check my posts, ive explained before, by reversing polarity (swapping negitive and positive) on a dc motor it turns the other way.
use a normally closed switch to limit the movement to 45 degrees either side of horizontal.

theres wiring diagrams floating around on this site... i use a mechanical timer and a double pole double throw relay.

the whole kit bang and kabodle for my autoturn including motor swithces plug pack and timers is less than 50 bucks.

ereryone knows the rotissarie motors are a tiny ******* motor with a million cog gears inside them right?? thats how they get the torque..
its not a big motor inside that box, hence it uses bugger all current.. i think the stall current is about .15 of an amp or something..

mod edit *
removed quote for readability


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:19 am 
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Quote:
ereryone knows the rotissarie motors are a tiny ******** motor with a million cog gears inside them right?? thats how they get the torque..
its not a big motor inside that box, hence it uses bugger all current.. i think the stall current is about .15 of an amp or something..

If that's true why does mine draw well over an amp when connected to 12V, without any load at all.
If I run it at 3V and use my hand to load it up to 4A it still hasn't stalled.
I'm just measuring the current using my multimeter, it only goes up to 10A so I'm off the scale when using the 12V.
I am using a 500mA plug pack that has selectable voltages between 3 and 12 V.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:45 am 
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If that's true why does mine draw well over an amp when connected to 12V, without any load at all.
If I run it at 3V and use my hand to load it up to 4A it still hasn't stalled.
I'm just measuring the current using my multimeter, it only goes up to 10A so I'm off the scale when using the 12V.
I am using a 500mA plug pack that has selectable voltages between 3 and 12 V.[/quote]

the outdoor magic 4kg battery opperated rotissarie motor is driven by one of these. when you split it open the number printed on the motor googles up some electronics mob in china, but the data is the same as the jaycar mob.

http://jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID ... rm=KEYWORD

id like to see it opperate at 120 watts for more than about 2 seconds without bursting into flames..

its obvious it uses bugger all power, ive got one on the bbq and it will turn 2 legs of pork for 4 hours on 2 ****** D cell batteries..

i cant imagine anyone wanting any more torque, and i dont know why anyone would want to spend any more money..

at the end of the day its all about making hatching eggs a more simple and effiecent process..... i guess you can lead a horse to water but you cant make it drink..

mod edit *
quote removed for readability


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:54 pm 
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Our Multiplo motor turns a round plate which acts as a crankshaft. So the motor continually drives in one direction, slowly, and as with a car piston, the tilt lever moves left to right and then back again continuously. No switching needed if you can gear it to operate slowly enough. Simple, robust and reliable. Just like car windscreen wipers. Motor in one direction, wipers in both directions via a crankshaft.
If you could gear a rotissery motor slow enough, and make a plate with diameter the same as the distance the handle moves from left to right, then you are ready to go :thumbs:


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:51 pm 
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Ruffled Feathers wrote:
Our Multiplo motor turns a round plate which acts as a crankshaft. So the motor continually drives in one direction, slowly, and as with a car piston, the tilt lever moves left to right and then back again continuously. No switching needed if you can gear it to operate slowly enough. Simple, robust and reliable. Just like car windscreen wipers. Motor in one direction, wipers in both directions via a crankshaft.
You could easily bolt a large diameter plate to your motor's output shaft and connect your tilting pushrod to the outer circumference of the plate.

Depends on the wiper motor. Some actually change direction inside the motor, some don't.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:44 pm 
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yeah thats why i edited the post to use a rotissery motor as a better example- if one were geared down then it could work as a continuous driving crankshaft setup similar to the multiquips, and substantially cheaper!


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:50 pm 
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I've had a bit of a play with the DC motor this morning.

I had an incubator shell, just the four walls, to play with.

What I'm really trying to demonstrate is just how effective and easy it can be if you use a winch system rather than levers and all that complicated stuff that takes ages and sometimes gets no where.

A winch simply winds a rope around a drum so basically it just pulls a rope at a speed v. Every bit of that rope moves at speed v. Under load that rope has a tensile force of F and your winch will have a max load F which you can use.
If you use a BBQ motor and just use the shaft as your drum you will find that the speed of the rope and the force available to you will be just fine for most autoturn systems in a fairly wide range of sizes of incubators.

The trick is stop thinking in terms of levers and all that stuff that is just confusing the heck out of you all.

Think of your winch as the mechanical power plant of your incubator. It doesn't matter much where you put it. Just run your rope out along a path such that it is out of the way until you get to where you need it and tie it to what you want to pull.People use winches because they are flexible and any changes you make are quick and easy to do. Like in very steep country where people log trees. Sometimes it is just too steep to get machinery down there.
So they have a great big winch thats sits on top of the hill and the fallers cut the tree down and just connect it to the winch rope as it goes past. Then after a while all the trees left are too far from the path of the winch rope so they shift the rope path closer. But the winch motor itself stays where it is usually.

Don't over engineer it. I'm not thinking pulleys, because my incubators are wood I'm using little screw in rings that are used for hanging pictures. They aren't perfect but they will do for now.

Now this incubator shell was just meant to have a simple shelf and manual turn. I just got the wood cut for 2 bators at the same time. So there was no guarantee it would be suitable for the rocking style of autoturner. But by using the motor in a winch style I can easily convert to a sliding rack type if necessary without having to shift the motor and end up with 16-19mm holes I don't need.

Image

This picture shows what I did. The big black dots are the motor shaft and the shaft the rack rocks on. The blue squares are the microswitch. The blue lines is the rope from the winch at the first try. As you can see this is a pretty poor way to do it. The rope isn't pulling even close to the direction of the movement of the rack. I have wasted a lot of the force I had available to be (simple vector stuff) but it still does the job just fine.
What would be better is to run the rope in the path of the green dotted line. I can't do that for the moment because the incubator doesn't have a floor yet to screw my rings into.
I can't or don't want to move the motor shaft any lower because the motor case would be lower than the floor of the bator.

Look at the set up with the rope along the green path. How hard would it be to have the motor shaft poke up through the floor of the incubator a few inches and act as your winch.

To make things a bit easier strongly suggest you consider just the more simple winch. Just wind the one rope in and out like a fishing rod and use a counter weight to go the other way. And that could be as simple as always stacking your eggs to the one side with just a slight weight for when it is full.

The walls on this incubator are only 240mm high, and the rack is the standard mutiquip one. I have enough room for the tilt and thats it, nowhere safe for the hatched chicks to sit. The same dimensions of box would give me at least 2 trays if I used used my auto turntable method so there is no chance this design will stay in the box.
Height is the problem but the incubator is 410 x 410 so there is space elesewhere I could use. The multipro rack is 6eggs x 6eggs or 6 x 50mm by 6 x 50 mm = 300mm x 300mm

How would I go if I tried for 8x50mm by 8 x 50mm = 64 eggs. Seems a tad ambitious given I couldn't find enough room for 36 eggs. The answer would be to have two trays side by side each 8x 4 eggs wide. Then in the tilted position, each rack occupies less vertical space. Or take it a step further 4 trays each being two eggs wide. Now this one I think has potential. If I can set up multiple rocking shelfs side by side then I can simply use ordinary egg cartons (maybe a bit of modifaction, totally disposal) to sit the eggs in.

I can't forsee any problems with this. Humidity is controlled in the incubator so they are never gonna get wet which condesation can do them in a fridge etc. Hygiene will be about a zillion times better than a broodies nest.

In reality four rows of egg cartons is going to be too tight for this bator but I will do a couple to show how you can do it at home.
Some incubators take it a step further and tilt each individual row of eggs meaning much less vertical space is lost. I don't have anything against cabinet incubators they are just so much harder to make.

Won't have much problems in turning all those racks, just need to add more ropes to my shaft, ....

After I have finished mucking around with this incubator it is likely to be an automatic sliding tray one.
This picture is pretty confusing but shows a few different configs you have up your sleeve withou having to change the motor position, including the sliding tray.
Image


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 8:00 am 
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Thanks for posting that, Denis. I understand what you mean better after seeing your diagrams & I think I could adapt that idea to my situation. It sounds like it would work. If I mounted the timer on the outside, I could run a line in through the air vent and mount the motor underneath the bottom rack. It's definitely worth thinking about.

edited to remove weight.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 1:14 pm 
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To get back to the timer itself.

At the moment the circuit is pretty straight forward. Plugpack --->unit---> motor
I think that is the most convenient form.

Image

But there is a slight complication. As hellocharlie points out about 3V is the preferred voltage for this motor. Not rocket science given we know it runs off two D cell batteries. I haven't used the DC motor for a couple of years, but my own incubator uses one.
Normally my circuits just switch 240V. So for an autoturn I just switch a 240V socket on and off. If I want to use a DC motor I just plug a plugpack into the socket and run the motor. If I want to use a 240V I just plug a 240V motor in and so on. I've tended to use 240V the last couple of years, they are quieter ...

The plugpacks I've used to drive the DC motors are usually less than 5 Volts (500mA - 1A ) . To use something like a 12V or even 9V and higher can be done but you have to step the voltage down across the motor. Easiest way is just put a series of diodes in line with one of you wires to the motor and it drops 0.6V at a time.

But if we go back to my timer unit it basically just switches the plugpack voltage to the motor. But you can't just decide to use a 3V plugpack and expect the unit to work. The micro circuit needs that plugpack to be more than about 6V so it can get the 5V it needs. But the relay needs close to it's 12V or else it just won't switch.
There's a few things I can do, a 6V relay might be a good idea and allow a plugpack of 6V to used. That's OK, but what if you were building your incubator and decided you needed a 12V wiper motor. You'd plug a 12V into it and hope the 12V doesn't upset the relay, and it probaly wouldn't. The micro's 5V will look after itself. So I guess that would be OK. But if in the original 6V version I had dropped the output down from 6 to 3 Volt then I presume you'd still only have 9 Volt coming out using a 12V .

Another approach is just feed the unit enough 12V to do the logic job and actually switch whatever voltage is appropriate for the motor, a second seperate power source for the motor. That is what I am going to have to do any way to use to switch 240V motors. And I will do that.

But the single power supply approach is much simpler. Basically the unit really is just capable of turning motors around and running them in the direction of a nominated switch which will stop it. But there is a multitude of uses it could have. For an auto turner the micro will switch it at pre set time intervals.

But what wouldn't be very hard to do is hook a simple $1.50 light diode and then the micro knows when it's dark or not and tells the motor to go up or down, left or right. And you have a chook house door closer.

So what I could do is make it a 12V unit. You have to plug a 12V supply to it with enough amps to run your motor. I could make the output voltage some thing selectable say 3 6 9 12 V.


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