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 Post subject: Possible salmonella
PostPosted: Mon Feb 29, 2016 7:37 pm 
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Dapper Duck
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A friend of mine has recently had a gastric complaint and had eaten some of his chicken's eggs that day. His doctor has sent him off to be tested for salmonella and said that if the tests show salmonella then it has to be reported to the Health Department and his chickens will have to be destroyed. Can you tell me if this is correct?


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 Post subject: Re: Possible salmonella
PostPosted: Mon Feb 29, 2016 7:48 pm 
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Fiesty Fowl
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Does salmonella exist in live chooks?


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 Post subject: Re: Possible salmonella
PostPosted: Mon Feb 29, 2016 9:19 pm 
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Golden Phoenix
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Yes, it does, which is the issue.

Salmonella enteritidis seems to be the more common variety. There is a lot of information about S.pullorum, but it's apparently (?) not found in Australia at this stage.

This paragraph is from the consumer version of the group that produces the Merck's Veterinary Manual:

Quote:
People are infected usually by eating undercooked poultry or eggs but sometimes by eating undercooked beef and pork, unpasteurized dairy products, or contaminated seafood or fresh produce. Salmonella bacteria can infect the ovaries of hens and thus infect the egg before the egg is laid. Other foods may be contaminated by animal feces (for example, in slaughterhouses) or by infected food handlers who do not adequately wash their hands after using a toilet.


Source: http://www.msdmanuals.com/en-au/home/in ... infections

S. enterides is covered here:

http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/poult ... ultry.html

Quote:
Transmission usually occurs horizontally from infected birds, contaminated environments, or infected rodents. Except for S Enteritidis and S Arizonae, transmission of most serotypes to progeny from infected breeders is mainly through fecal contamination of the eggshell. S Enteritidis and S Arizonae can infect the interior of the egg through transovarial transmission. Infected birds remain carriers.


The issue is that infected poultry may not show symptoms, and yet be able to pass the infection on:

Salmonella (any variety) in poultry is a notifiable disease in all Australian states, as far as I can tell, probably because of the risk of infection and spread among the commercial flocks.

This is just from the Victorian site: http://agriculture.vic.gov.au/agricultu ... n-victoria.

Edit: I've been editing as I find information, and have just removed a batch of information relating to S.pullorum and replaced it with S.enterides info. It's basically the same, but I didn't want to provide info on a strain that we're told isn't in Australia currently.


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 Post subject: Re: Possible salmonella
PostPosted: Mon Feb 29, 2016 9:43 pm 
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Dapper Duck
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Thanks for the info. I've done some searching too but can't find anything that says the chickens must be destroyed. Have you?


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 Post subject: Re: Possible salmonella
PostPosted: Mon Feb 29, 2016 9:58 pm 
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Proud Rooster
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Whether S. pullorum is present in Australia is an interesting question. It was almost certainly eradicated from commercial flocks by an extensive testing program after once being common.
It would be surprising if it had fizzled out in backyard flocks as it is favoured by exchange of birds and fertile eggs along with artificial incubation.
Although it is easily spread by feather dander and the like apparently research found that it did not spread from property to property even over short distances.
Various government veterinarians seem to either consider that it still probably exists or at least concede the possibility.
Those most likely to have the best idea of the situation are the people responsible for commercial poultry bio-security where it would have a very big financial impact.
However there is another school of thought that commercial poultry would be unaware of it and it best not mentioned for fear of alerting them and causing a backlash against the hobby.


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 Post subject: Re: Possible salmonella
PostPosted: Mon Feb 29, 2016 10:32 pm 
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Fiesty Fowl
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infoaddict wrote:
Yes, it does, which is the issue.

Salmonella enteritidis seems to be the more common variety. There is a lot of information about S.pullorum, but it's apparently (?) not found in Australia at this stage.

This paragraph is from the consumer version of the group that produces the Merck's Veterinary Manual:

Quote:
People are infected usually by eating undercooked poultry or eggs but sometimes by eating undercooked beef and pork, unpasteurized dairy products, or contaminated seafood or fresh produce. Salmonella bacteria can infect the ovaries of hens and thus infect the egg before the egg is laid. Other foods may be contaminated by animal feces (for example, in slaughterhouses) or by infected food handlers who do not adequately wash their hands after using a toilet.


Source: http://www.msdmanuals.com/en-au/home/in ... infections

S. enterides is covered here:

http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/poult ... ultry.html

Quote:
Transmission usually occurs horizontally from infected birds, contaminated environments, or infected rodents. Except for S Enteritidis and S Arizonae, transmission of most serotypes to progeny from infected breeders is mainly through fecal contamination of the eggshell. S Enteritidis and S Arizonae can infect the interior of the egg through transovarial transmission. Infected birds remain carriers.


The issue is that infected poultry may not show symptoms, and yet be able to pass the infection on:

Salmonella (any variety) in poultry is a notifiable disease in all Australian states, as far as I can tell, probably because of the risk of infection and spread among the commercial flocks.

This is just from the Victorian site: http://agriculture.vic.gov.au/agricultu ... n-victoria.

Edit: I've been editing as I find information, and have just removed a batch of information relating to S.pullorum and replaced it with S.enterides info. It's basically the same, but I didn't want to provide info on a strain that we're told isn't in Australia currently.

Sorry, to clarify is it the same salmonella that makes people ill when eating badly cooked chicken? I had no idea that you could get it from the eggs of a carrier....I mean I knew you could get it from badly cooked chicken or eggs, but I was under the, obviously misinformed, idea that it was if someone left the eggs out after cooking them that salmonella grew in them.....sort of didn't understand that it existed in the egg when laid by the hen.


Last edited by hennypenny on Tue Mar 01, 2016 6:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Possible salmonella
PostPosted: Mon Feb 29, 2016 11:02 pm 
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Great Game
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The recent outbreak of salmonella in Victoria has a connect with poultry, it's mentioned in this link, but I recall other comments said calling out the poultry based fertiliser was misinformation.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-02-04/p ... es/7140646

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 Post subject: Re: Possible salmonella
PostPosted: Mon Feb 29, 2016 11:47 pm 
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Junior Champion Bird
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HelenB wrote:
A friend of mine has recently had a gastric complaint...


Anywhere near the Murray River?

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I observe in fascination a worm move by peristaltic action through the freshly turned earth as I plant out my chilies. Grasping the Annelid I toss it to the waiting pack of beady-eyed vultures and watch the ensuing mayhem while laughing like a chook!


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 Post subject: Re: Possible salmonella
PostPosted: Mon Feb 29, 2016 11:58 pm 
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Dapper Duck
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Nope. Down south.

We just really need to know if he will be forced to have his chickens killed.


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 Post subject: Re: Possible salmonella
PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2016 12:52 am 
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Junior Champion Bird
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Location: Victoria
You'll have to contact the relevant state agricultural/primary industry department for specific information on that I think.

How soon after eating the eggs did he get sick? Salmonella poisoning isn't immediate, it can take 6-72 hours to incubate, sometimes longer, and on average it's around 12-36 hours. It may well not be the eggs at all, if it's even salmonella. It's less likely to occur if the eggs were fully cooked, and like the article PC linked, it's occurring more and more in things like salads, sprouts and the like.

If he's got a decent sized flock and if he does test positive for salmonella, I'd be inclined to pay to get some eggs tested before resorting to destruction, if destruction of a backyard flock is required by the authorities.


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 Post subject: Re: Possible salmonella
PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2016 6:26 am 
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Junior Champion Bird
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Ok just checking, I have a valid reason and it would be an alternative cause. And they haven't visited anywhere along the Murray river since the 15/2/2016?

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Cheers, Milo.
I observe in fascination a worm move by peristaltic action through the freshly turned earth as I plant out my chilies. Grasping the Annelid I toss it to the waiting pack of beady-eyed vultures and watch the ensuing mayhem while laughing like a chook!


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 Post subject: Re: Possible salmonella
PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2016 10:27 pm 
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Golden Phoenix
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Location: Tarago, near Goulburn
Hennypenny - yes, the same one. That's why outbreaks are treated so seriously if they're tracked to chicken.

It can occur in off foods as well as uncooked eggs, which is why raw egg mayonnaise, while the best and proper kind, is so risky in restaurants. Cooked eggs are no more (or less) risky than other cooked proteins.


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 Post subject: Re: Possible salmonella
PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2016 12:46 am 
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Proud Rooster
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infoaddict wrote:
It can occur in off foods as well as uncooked eggs, which is why raw egg mayonnaise, while the best and proper kind, is so risky in restaurants.


Why would raw egg mayo be more risky in a restaurant than in a home?

To my mind if a person got sick from raw egg mayo at a restaurant, it is more likely due to that person having a sick constitution. They probably would not make raw egg mayo at home anyway. They may not even cook at home, therefore any sickness they get will be from bought food of some kind.

Home produced eggs are generally not washed whereas most commercial eggs of all kinds do get washed.
Why can't the Salmonella be on the egg shell of a home produced egg?
If Salmonella comes from within the egg, how come we are now getting outbreaks from eating veg produced using organic fertilizers that may not have been steam treated or composted thoroughly enough & to a high enough temp.
Wouldn't that mean it is coming from the chook poo or maybe dead chickens that end up in the manure from commercial barns?

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going through the process of getting organic certification for my property but horse & chook worming throwing a big spanner in the works

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 Post subject: Re: Possible salmonella
PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2016 1:53 am 
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Junior Champion Bird
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The problem isn't so much with the food itself, but where it's being made. There is more chance that something will go wrong in a commercial kitchen, improper food handling practices and the like. It would be nice to think that everyone working in the food industry followed basic food hygiene protocols, but unfortunately they don't which is usually when you'll see mass food poisonings, be it salmonella, e-coli or what have you.

In a home environment, you have much greater control over the food you prepare and eat, and can ensure greater care is taken what you make. That said, the last I had heard, incidents of food poisoning in a home kitchen have increased in recent years. But it tends to always come down to the same thing - improper food hygiene.

I think salmonella poisoning in a home kitchen is more likely to occur from cross contamination when preparing a meal and poorly cooked chicken than it is from a raw egg mayonnaise specifically, but that's mainly because the latter is less likely to actually occur at home. Of course though, if you do happen to have an egg that is contaminated with salmonella and do make raw egg mayonnaise with it, then the risk of illness is there regardless of where it was prepared.

Unfortunately though, even people with robust immune systems do get food poisoning too, it isn't just the territory of the sickly and those with weak constitutions.

You do raise a good point about how salmonella is occurring more often with non-poultry based foodstuffs, not one I've looked into personally though in regards to fertilisers, but it would be interesting to read about. The salmonella bacteria can survive in soils and water for extended periods of time, so one has to assume that somewhere up the line contamination is happening, most likely due to improper practices by the people in charge of it. There has been an increased incidence of e-coli contamination on crops too (although it probably gets argued by some that the outbreaks aren't increasing, there is just better detection).

Wow I'm rambling something shocking, I need to try and sleep so I'll leave it at that before I get even more incoherent, lol.


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 Post subject: Re: Possible salmonella
PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2016 1:51 pm 
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Proud Rooster
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Azira said [Wow I'm rambling something shocking].

Absolutely not! Your explanations were excellent, thankyou. :)

It's interesting about sickness from non poultry foods. These days it is the 'in' thing to use liquid fertilizers be they from organic or non organic sources. I remember when many people got ecoli from eating cucumber in salad in Britain & Europe. The cucumber was grown in Spain if I remember rightly. The farmer was spraying the crop with freshly made liquid fertilizer but the ecoli was actually in the irrigation water I think it was.
So it lives in many places.
However liquid fertilizing is nothing new having been around as long as humans have been using manures to grow foods in.
I'm sure people got sick 'way back when', but now we seem to get sick at the drop of a hat.
Babies are raised in sterile environments along with the rest of the family so it's no wonder many have poor immune systems.

As you said Azira, it's maybe not that there is a lot more of it around but that it is being detected & reported better.
People go to the doctor nowadays every time they feel a bit off colour. Years ago we would have shrugged our shoulders & got on with it or maybe lay down for 30mins. So there is much more reporting from that end for sure.
Then the medicating with antibiotics all because we feel a bit off colour rather than let the body deal with it.
Of course if we are really sick, the doctor is the place to go!

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ClissaT

going through the process of getting organic certification for my property but horse & chook worming throwing a big spanner in the works

Favourite saying: Madness is doing the same thing over & over, but expecting a different result! -Einstein


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