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PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:31 pm 
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Prime Pekin
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Hi All,

Lately i am getting into the genetics thing, one thing this site is really cool for is it friendly helpers/gurus on colors etc. I am trying to get my head around chick downs, and before i go of on a rampant crusade to dabble in colour breeding i would like it if we could start a thread with photos on chick down.

I would like it if we take it slow, currently we should all be hatching chicks so photos of them shouldn't be hard to get. I would like if we could put up an e+/e+, E/E, eWh/eWh, eb/eb, ER/ER. Then if possible splits of all alleles. If possible an explanation of the differences etc.

Without just copying from Davids book, even though this is a great reference, sometimes a walkthrough discussion could awaken some genetics in all of us expanding the knowledge i believe is the best way to improve our rare breeds. I have some rocks hatching tonight hopefully so i will have E/E covered. Unfortunately i dont breed other chicks so if any anomolies come up i will post.

Cheers

Christian

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Last edited by intoChooks on Tue Aug 25, 2009 9:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Chick down colour:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 6:22 pm 
christian when i get more motivated i will help you with photos but i just need a break at the moment. if you have a look through my gallery you will see some chicken down colour confused with lavender. i will keep this post in mind when hatching my latest chickens as there will be gold sebrights mangled by dominant white as well as lavender. sebright chickens are based on ER but very different to normal ER down as the chickens are marbled. hence with lavender it has diluted gold and lavender instead of black. with dominant white the black is replaced by white but the gold still seen.

in my photos you will see eb down colours confused with the addition of lavender or albino.

just bare with me. i am sure i will get motivated in a couple of weeks.

k


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 Post subject: Re: Chick down colour:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 6:36 pm 
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Prime Pekin
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Hi Ruff,

thanks for your reply, I am hoping if we all pitch in, we maybe able to eventually turn this into a sticky(with some creative editing). I think once everyone sees that it is the chick down colour that can help tremendously with colour breeding, and help make massive steps forward as people try to reach there goals and take out some of the guess work.

Cheers once again


Christian

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 Post subject: Re: Chick down colour:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 7:39 pm 
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Prime Pekin
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A short explanation before the pictures
Chick hatch down
E - Extended black
The down is black on the dorsal and lateral surfaces,
whilst the ventral surfaces and the wing tips are cream-colored or
white. Homozygous chicks often have a small white dot on each side of
the lower foreface.
ER - Birchen
The down resembles that of E, although the non-black area on
the ventral surfaces may be reduced in some cases. The head may be brownish.
eWh – Wheaten
The down of wheaten is essentially clear cream in color,
although small dorsal head spots are common. An occasional chick,
usually female, may show a faint, broken trace of the dark lateral
back stripes.
e+ - Duckwing
The wild type down pattern consists of a dark brown median dorsal
stripe that continues onto the dorsal surface of the head. On
either side of the back are narrower, dark brown, lateral stripes
separated from the median stripe by two yellowish-white stripes.
The ground color is of a lighter tan shade, being lightest on the
ventral surfaces.
eb – Brown
The brown chick has the darker brown pigment more evenly distributed
over the dorsal surfaces and the head. Some reduced evidence of the
yellowish-white stripe is often_ evident. There is no sharp break in
the head Color as in the e+ chick, although some lighter shading
of brown may be evident in front of the eyes and/or along the front
line of the comb.
Note: These descriptions are for the genes in the absence of other colour-changing gene, many of which alter the above colour description quite dramatically,
David


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 Post subject: Re: Chick down colour:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 7:49 pm 
well i will start while he cooks the dinner.

here is a dominant white chicken. dominant white removes black and leaves gold. in this case this chicken is most likely a e+ wildtype. i hope blackdotte confirms this:

Image

here is the same colour but without the dominant white gene:

Image

here are some albino chickens. the middle one is albino on eb, where the blacks are diluted to grey and the gold too yellow. the other 2 chickens are wheatens which are yellow.

Image

the following darker chicken of the 3 is a standard eb chicken. its lighter siblings are lightened by the influence of the lavender gene:

Image

we must keep this to newly hatched chickens up to a week old. nothing older as chickens start to change too quickly.

k


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 Post subject: Re: Chick down colour:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 8:04 pm 
here is a batch of some typical wheaten chickens with their flight feathers growing:

Image

there can be some variation in wheaten with varying amounts of black lines, darkish hackles and grey as well as shades of golds and yellow on the chickens.


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 Post subject: Re: Chick down colour:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 8:50 pm 
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Gallant Game
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Location: N.E. NSW, Australia
The following are all e+ wild type based, varying in eumelanin (black) restrictors (Co, Db).

1. Wild type
e+/e+
Image

----------------
2. Wild type with Columbian gene Co
bottom chick - e+/e+ Co/Co (top chick - e+/e+ co+/co+)
Image

---------------
3. Wild type with Dark Brown gene Db
e+/e+ Db/Db
Image
---------------
-Co on e+ wild type tends to darken back, etc down, but sometimes dorsal stripes are still partially visible.

-Db lightens e+ phaeomelanin down and widens dorsal stripes.

Photo 2 - Co chick is Millefleur, i.e. also has mo mottling gene (e+/e+ mo/mo Co/Co), but this mo gene generally doesn't change chick down colour/pattern with e+ Co chicks.

Photo 3 - Db chick may also have Pg (Pattern). This Pattern gene might in combination with Db change patterning of down some.
======================================
The following are Wheaten:

4. Wheaten, Sex-linked Gold (no columbian gene, ie co+/co+)
eWh s+
Image

5. Wheaten with Columbian gene, Sex-linked Gold
eWh Co s+
Image
------------------

Photo 4- Wheaten sex-linked gold co+/co+ (without Columbian) are usually cream. The Db gene doesn't change eWh chick down colour. Therefore, this chick may or may not have Db.

Photo 5- Wheaten sex-linked gold with Co gene, changes the cream chick down shade to buff.

Note, Wheaten sex-linked Silver Co chicks remain cream/white. Therefore, to use wheaten chicks in sex-linked silver/gold crosses for day-old ID of gender, it's usually necessary to have Co - columbian in the birds, as it is very hard to ID between gold & silver in wheaten chicks without Co.

-----------------------------------
* Edit - added Wheaten


Last edited by KazJaps on Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 9:19 pm 
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Flock Master
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:thanks: :thanks: :thanks: :thanks: :thanks: :thanks: :thanks: even though 'the book' is coming this is exactly what i have been looking for lately. This is brilliant. I can already see the differences in the wild stripes as depicted. This thread should be a sticky 'bible'. Cheers julie

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 7:43 am 
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Prime Pekin
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Hi Everyone,

thank you so much for the photos and explanations, i really hope this thread develops and a special thanks to Kazjaps for explaining different colour distribtion genes and their affect on chick down, please keep it coming as i am learning.


Christian

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 1:41 am 
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Gallant Game
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Location: N.E. NSW, Australia
Hi Christian,

I thought it might be good to compare cuckoo chicks to your Barred Rocks.

Photo 1:
The following 3 are all heterozygous/hemizygous sex-linked barring (B/b+ or B/-)
Left - Blue Cuckoo (Bl/bl+), Middle - Lavender Cuckoo (lav/lav), Right - Black (normal) Cuckoo:
Image
------------
Photo 2:
The following one (cockerel) is homozygous for sex-linked barring B/B
Image
He turned out unusual when feathered:
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu37 ... barmot.jpg

Probably all of the above are heterozygous at the E locus – E/e+ or ER/e+. Most are silver or silver -carrying gold (doesn't usually change E or ER chick down). Plus, probably all are mottled (mo/mo), but for some reason these weren’t typical mottled down (eg penguin pattern) – more eumelanin (black) than usual. And I was also segregating Db – Dark Brown (or a very similar eumelanin restrictor of ER), but for some reason this wasn’t showing in chick down.

Photo 2:
The last chick above (B/B) probably had Db also, but usually Db changes ER black down to brownish tinge – or brownish head/face only. Maybe none of these were homozygous Db/Db. Plus, the last chick had the combination of mo/mo & B/B, which is the same genotype of male Ancobars (Ancona/Barred). These Ancobar B/B mo/mo male adults are much lighter than the hens (there’s a photo of these on p211 “Genetics of the Fowl”, Hutt). But I did have an ER/e+ B/b+ mo/mo lav/lav rooster with Columbian restriction, with similar pattern, so I think Db was the main reason for lighter phenotype in photo2 - B/B chick/cockerel.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 2:06 am 
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Wise One
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Unfortunately, no homozygous chick pics Christian, but these little fellows may still be of interest. They are less than twenty-four hours old. Bred from a cockerel breeding brown leghorn bantam male http://gallery.backyardpoultry.com/show ... puser=6203 over white leghorn bantam females http://gallery.backyardpoultry.com/show ... puser=6203 They are not quite what I was expecting. My thoughts;- they are heterozygous E/e+. I suppose the dominant extended black E has exerted the greater influence over e+ on down colour in conjunction with I/i+. A single dose of dominant white I/i+ from the hens preventing the expression of black, maybe assisted by other "whiteners" from the hen ie B, Bl, & S if present. The black flecks are I guess leakage. They are lovely little chicks.
Image
Image


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 5:18 pm 
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Im finding the whole chick down thing very interesting, even if I cannot grasp half of what is being said! :lol: I will add my contribution, I will let the experts fill in what she is. Pure bred Malay chick but parents are different colours, (Pile male over black/red female) makes it harder I know, but this down is very distinctive compared to the rest that have hatched out. Ive been told that the combo could produce a duckwing, but I have no idea, not much info on the different combinations that I can find. :?

Image

Image


Michelle

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 8:01 pm 
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A variation of eb/eb, no realt stripe or clown smile on chin.

Left chick is Bl/bl (Blue) right chick is Bl/Bl (SPlash)

Image

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 8:11 pm 
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Old Mother Goose
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These 3 chicks are all full sibling wyandottes, so share the same Mh, Single laced genes etc. The only difference is the e allel.

eb/eb

Image

eb/eWh

Image

eWh/eWh

Image


Raf

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 12:50 pm 
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Prime Pekin
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Hi All,

I know i started this thread, now it is time for me to contribute. As we all know i keep Light Barred Plymouth Rocks here is the down, it is E extended black from what i have read, also to make yellow skin and legs i think id is persent which changes legs to yellow.

Cockrel on left pullet on right
Image

Pullet
Image

Cockrel
Image

These guys are about 5 days old, the cockrel is noticably different from pullet as he has large white headspot, this is indicative of double dose of barring. Pullets can only carry one copy of this gene as it is on the sex chromosome. Any input welcome i am alsways willing to learn.

Cheers

Christian

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