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 Post subject: Creating Pile
PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 12:07 pm 
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Dapper Duck
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On an american forum recently, someone said that by crossing a recessive white rooster over a wheaten hen, he was able to produce some good coloured piles. I plan to try this in spring, as I have a recessive white rooster and a wheaten hen (OEG).
I was just wondering if anyone has tried this or heard of this being done before.
From what I have read, it is not mentioned as possible. But at the same time, I penned a pair or recessive whites this year and hatched a fully coloured BBR, and that is not meant to be possible either. Recessive white is tricky at the best of times.


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 Post subject: Re: Creating Pile
PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 1:03 pm 
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i have pyle like markings from a dom white male over wheaten female. What is the significance of using rec white as opposed to using dominant?
Cheers julie

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 Post subject: Re: Creating Pile
PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 1:14 pm 
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From my understanding, rec white changes ALL colour, while dom white only changes black....so rec white should not make pile offspring.


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 Post subject: Re: Creating Pile
PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 2:24 pm 
are you sure you have not got recessive white and dominant white muddled up?


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 Post subject: Re: Creating Pile
PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 2:50 pm 
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interesting. Is there a link to the american forum where this was stated so we can see it in context? As ruff is alluding perhaps this person got it mixed up.
Cheers julie

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 Post subject: Re: Creating Pile
PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 8:18 pm 
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LAWOFNATURE wrote:
I penned a pair or recessive whites this year and hatched a fully coloured BBR, and that is not meant to be possible either. Recessive white is tricky at the best of times.


If you got BBR out of a pen of recessive whites, they aren't recessive whites!
I don't think you could breed piles using recessive wht either, but I could be wrong.

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 Post subject: Re: Creating Pile
PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 11:05 am 
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george wrote:
LAWOFNATURE wrote:
I penned a pair or recessive whites this year and hatched a fully coloured BBR, and that is not meant to be possible either. Recessive white is tricky at the best of times.


If you got BBR out of a pen of recessive whites, they aren't recessive whites!
I don't think you could breed piles using recessive wht either, but I could be wrong.


Then tell me george, what are they?? They are both white, and they came out of BBR parents.
For the last 10 years we have had whites "pop up" in our line, but this was the first time we tried a White-to-White pairing.
The first white hen was actually a partridge for the first year of her life, and after every molt, progressively got whiter, until almost pure white at 4 years old. Her son was a BBR for his first year, and then molted out white. And now the lineage down from him has the odd chicken hatch white. These are not PURE PURE white, but contain an amout of "brassyness' through the hackle and sadle feathers in roosters, and a slight tinge of coulour on the breast of the hens.


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 Post subject: Re: Creating Pile
PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 11:12 am 
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Old Mother Goose
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LAWOFNATURE wrote:

The first white hen was actually a partridge for the first year of her life, and after every molt, progressively got whiter, until almost pure white at 4 years old.


Not recessive white, thats for sure. Some other gene is in this though, so lets put recessive white behind us and look for the cause.... Ruff? Blackdotte?

Raf

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 Post subject: Re: Creating Pile
PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 11:20 am 
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new feathers wrote:
interesting. Is there a link to the american forum where this was stated so we can see it in context? As ruff is alluding perhaps this person got it mixed up.
Cheers julie


The site in question has since been defunct, but it was in the Cubalaya breed section.
He clearly stated that it was a recessive white rooster used. I do not know his knowledge on rec white V's Dom white, and he did not respond to my post when i enquired before the site crashed. This is why I asked it here.


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 Post subject: Re: Creating Pile
PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 11:28 am 
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Old Mother Goose
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No problems mate, but recessive white does not exhibit that way so it clearly isnt. c/c Chicks are white. No colour comes through.

So its something else. There will be an answer. Im sure there has been a discussion on this in the past.... will try to find it, but I alos think ruff was involved in it then as well, so she may be able to help.

Raf

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 Post subject: Re: Creating Pile
PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 11:48 am 
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rwood wrote:
No problems mate, buy recessive white does not exhibit that way so it clearly isnt. c/c Chicks are white. No colour comes through.

Raf


Here is where I may be getting confused. I was told a long time ago by OEG breeders that when the base colour is BBR or similar, then there will always be a brassyness shining through. Something to do with the red not being 100% diluted. I have also read that it does not succeed to completely inhibit the synthesis of the melanine. Whatever the gene is, it is appearing as recessive in my breedings. A white rooster paired with a BR hen that has had white appear in her line (either sibling or aunty/uncle) produced 4 white chickens and 6 coloured, While a the same white rooster paired with a BR hen that does not have any record of white in her line produced 12 fully coloured chickens. I was told that to remove the brassyness, breed to an ALL black bird, and you will get PURE white without the brassyness.


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 Post subject: Re: Creating Pile
PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 12:23 pm 
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Old Mother Goose
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Thats alot of good information on what you are seeing. Someone with reccessive white experience will surely be able to figure this out for us.

Raf

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 Post subject: Re: Creating Pile
PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 12:36 pm 
i think you maybe talking about 2 different whites if not 3 different whites here.

you can cross 2 white birds together and get piles....one maybe recessive and one maybe dominant.

birds becoming whiter with age is a recognized occurance which neither dominant white or recessive white. it could be mottling but more likely a well known thing called vitiligo (look it up).

recessive white hides gold far better than dominant white. usually recessive white does an excellent job on wheaten or BBR however a lot of the game birds seem to have a gene that can make it leaky (no idea what) or the white colour is built on another set of genes.

it is impossible as far as my experience goes to make pile outof recessive white but it is possible that dominant white and every other bird you have carries recessive white. recessive genes can hide quite happilly within a line untill enough birds are bred and the genes have a chance to line up.

there are no end of possibilities to what you may have. a dominant white bird which is also expressing recessive white would most likely appear as a perfectly white bird. remembering OEGs are not usually bred for a specific colour and most OEG breeders prefer to remain ignorant of how they get their colours in a scientific way.


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 Post subject: Re: Creating Pile
PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 1:27 pm 
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Dapper Duck
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ruff wrote:
i think you maybe talking about 2 different whites if not 3 different whites here.

you can cross 2 white birds together and get piles....one maybe recessive and one maybe dominant.

birds becoming whiter with age is a recognized occurance which neither dominant white or recessive white. it could be mottling but more likely a well known thing called vitiligo (look it up).

recessive white hides gold far better than dominant white. usually recessive white does an excellent job on wheaten or BBR however a lot of the game birds seem to have a gene that can make it leaky (no idea what) or the white colour is built on another set of genes.

it is impossible as far as my experience goes to make pile outof recessive white but it is possible that dominant white and every other bird you have carries recessive white. recessive genes can hide quite happilly within a line untill enough birds are bred and the genes have a chance to line up.

there are no end of possibilities to what you may have. a dominant white bird which is also expressing recessive white would most likely appear as a perfectly white bird. remembering OEGs are not usually bred for a specific colour and most OEG breeders prefer to remain ignorant of how they get their colours in a scientific way.


Okay, so the answer to my original question is "no". no-one has any experience, nor believes that recessive white can produce piles.......I did not think it possible either, i was just curious.

I had considered vitilgo, but find it difficult to see how it could be, when a tracable line from the original hen that turned white is now consistently throwing white chickens. I do concede that rec white may have been lurking in the shadows of that hens DNA, but the lines that dont throw white are decended from her siblings, so technically, they all originate from the same parental line.

Picture time............this is what I am seeing:
Image

This is how the chickens are coloured at hatching:
Image

And this is how the same chicken coloured out at 3 months:
Image


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 Post subject: Re: Creating Pile
PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 2:02 pm 
lawofnature i have been playing with dominant white over the last couple of years. i have bred both whites for many years. recently i have been experimenting with making pile pekins, white indians,pile aussie bantams and trying to prove that a gene i have is not blue but the dunn gene which shares the same loci as dominant white. plus i have also been playing with chamois in both pekins and sebrights which is making white laced golds. i still have a lot to observe yet.

i have found in my indians 2 doses of I (dominant white) will give you single dull laced pullets and brassy to white ckls. these birds have no white ticking. the single lace on the pullets follow an outer white lace and the dull gold lace is in the centre of the feather. i have found this most interesting as it makes me wander where the second lace (double lacing is what indians are supposed to have) has gone. these birds when crossed to a dark rooster will produce double laced jubilees again.

again i am perplexed at the pure clean white on the pile modern bantams. some say that they are doctored which i was inclined to believe until i bred the perfect jubilee coloured ckl with good bright red and pure white in the non red areas. i ate him as his legs were no good.

c (recessive white) has been highly purified to give bright white birds, a great deal of effort has been put into them to avoid brassiness. however if effort was not put into them you would get brassibirds like the body of the rooster you show.

the chicken you show here looks very similar to chickens i hatched with my aussie experimental line but they were paler but now coming through with strong golds. the yokohama chickens i produce are more the colour of the chicken you show but these are not dominant white but blue splash.

i do have pekins that are white but look like washed out piles. these are lines i have not really tested to prove they are c but i know damn well they are not I. the ckls of these birds often have quite a deal of colour in them as chickens but slowly go white but a brassy white and more a very very washed out pile. unfortunatly i don't have the time or room to really sort these unusual pekins out and am down to 2 hens that i keep promising to cross them back to cc.

with c without really being sure i think you can have a washed out pile, so pale you cannot really be sure it is especially if you have red dirt like i do. i should go and take a photo of a little pekin hen i have that is coming through a moult nicely and looks very interesting, white with pale peach on wings. but unfortunatly i am not allowed to do any more photos till sunday (and this will be an auction) as i have too much to do inbetween. if this topic develops more i will do it on monday.

the fact that a hen turned white over time could very well be vitiligo as it is not unknown in oeg and she just happened to be recessive white. you could have mated her to a bird that was both cc and II thus resulting in piles and whites. when i have doubts like this i do other tests. for a start you need to know the E allels of both parents for a start even if it is E or could also be e+ and most likely is if oeg. you need to know a bird that is cc and not II Cc or Ii Cc which maybe not easy.

sometimes it is easier to accept the theory that you cannot have a pile made from cc unless you really want to set out to prove it is not.


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