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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 7:59 am 
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Champion Bird
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Sicilian Hornet is not new..I seen a rare French breed that looks the same in the first photo.Cann't think of the breeds name but I shore it come in red colour and a black colour and some in splash colour.

So what's so important about this birds..I must be missing the point :dontknow

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 8:14 am 
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New England Poultry wrote:
Sicilian Hornet is not new..I seen a rare French breed that looks the same in the first photo.Cann't think of the breeds name but I shore it come in red colour and a black colour and some in splash colour.

So what's so important about this birds..I must be missing the point :dontknow

Every breed has it's following. Some might say the same about your Rhode Island Reds or your Rouen ducks.

The Buttercups & Hornets are extremely important because they are unique and could easily be lost. The SB is now one of our recognised breeds that are standardised in the APSII. They are fascinating to some people because of their extraordinary comb and the challenges involved in breeding them. Unfortunately not only the genetics, but also the knowledge held by poultry breeders can easily be lost.

The work done by byhookorchook in the preservation of this breed is invaluable.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 8:18 am 
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Just had a quick googel and found some stuff from what I was talking about .This is one of the French fowls... Crevecoeur the colour :- black, white, cuckoo, blue

And the buttercup breed ;- Caumont fowl

WOW That's an old Normandy breed, one of my ancestors owned all of Rouen ,But that was be for 1066 AD.... :rofl:

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 8:24 am 
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The Buttercups & Hornets are extremely important because they are unique and could easily be lost. The SB is now one of our recognised breeds that are standardised in the APSII.


I think it's just and old French breed..The French where running the Island back in the 1700's ...Then after that the English ran the Islands.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 8:38 am 
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New England Poultry wrote:
Just had a quick googel and found some stuff from what I was talking about .This is one of the French fowls... Crevecoeur the colour :- black, white, cuckoo, blue

And the buttercup breed ;- Caumont fowl

WOW That's an old Normandy breed, one of my ancestors owned all of Rouen ,But that was be for 1066 AD.... :rofl:


Crevecoeur has a crest, the most similar French breed would be the LaFleche.

Many poultry breeds are quite like each other really. Barnevelder and Welsummer (if we take out colours); Leghorns, Anconas, Minorcas etc. It is the small but very important differences that make them breeds whether that is colour, size, utility or some other attribute. The differences are obvious to the purists but less so to beginners or those wiht a passing interest.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 8:42 am 
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I think it's just and old French breed..The French where running the Island back in the 1700's ...Then after that the English ran the Islands.

I am not an expert on the history of this fowl, but in my mind it doesn't matter who controlled Sicily. The breed is hundreds of years old and is extremely rare and at risk of extinction in Australia. That means that it's not 'just' anything ..... it's a valuable piece of poultry history and should be preserved if possible and valued.

It is interesting how we see certain breeds and they either appeal to us or not. I have to admit to being drawn to anything that is unusual or slightly odd. ;-)

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 8:57 am 
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but in my mind it doesn't matter who controlled Sicily


But that is inportant as it help with the understanding of the make up of the breed and that is poultry history..
The La Flèche is a 15th century breeds If the French were in that area in the 17th century then there a good changes that the italiano breed is just a French breed.
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Crevecoeur has a crest, the most similar French breed would be the LaFleche


Sorry you right..Here is a site which show's the French rare breeds.....I hope people can see my point what I'm getting at....


http://volaillepoultry.chez.com/franc2.html

http://volaillepoultry.chez.com/franc2.html

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 9:14 am 
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Chicken07 wrote:
Thanks. I see what you mean.

It is obviously a breed that is very challenging to breed well.

What do you think of the example photo in the Australian Poultry Standard? I see that you've sponsored it. Is it a good example, or just the best that was available? Would you describe that as a broken glass cup?


Good question. As you know sponsors were called before publication so I had no idea they would go with that image. If I'd known I surely wouldn't have out my name to it as the implication is and the way people view it is I agree with it. There are so many good examples I'm staggered that they went with that image.

For the same reason it's not worth going to shows as most judges have little idea on how to critique buttercups and if main feature of a breed is wrong like the comb or type then it isn't the breed.

In relation to another comment above I think the author is referring to La Fleche but that is usually black occasionally white or splash. But always black legs as the French prefer. The significant thing is here we don't have La Fleche in Australia anyway so as a breeding excersise it was worth constructing the duplex type for the simple fact of variety in our isolated situation. Any novice can reproduce a breed unto itself. It takes a little more skill to make something from scratch that breeds true.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 9:27 am 
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La Fleche but that is usually black occasionally white or splash. But always black legs as the French prefer. The significant thing is here we don't have La Fleche in Australia


No the La Fleche come's in the same colour here's a photo..PS the beak is a tad long in this photo..

And I have seen adds that are selling La Fleche just found one on googel selling eggs in Australia..I don't no if it's the real deal....

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 9:53 am 
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The image you're using to defend your argument is my first duplex individual conceived by serendipity .

http://freeforumzone.leonardo.it/d/1050 ... one.aspx/1

It is a HETREZGOTE ie one gen for duplex of one parent hatched 2005 large tissue mass , spreading horns, smooth beak. The Sicilian Hornet is HOMOZYGOTE ie a gene from each parent for duplex expressed in small tissue mass, upright horn, pleiotropic effect cavernous beak and no coincidence bred precisely for characteristics. The above being a fortuitous outcome, I got what I got as far as type colour beak length.

Edited by Mod

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Last edited by byhookorchook on Wed Oct 16, 2013 11:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 9:56 am 
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Let's keep this thread describing the relative characteristics of these breeds and comb traits, it is interesting to see how these rare comb alleles affect phenotype and how they are present in a number of breeds overseas.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 9:59 am 
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byhookorchook

NO!

It's for here http://bib.ge/chicken/open.php?id=374

Yor have got a photo for your abitare of La Fleche

Edited by Mod

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 10:07 am 
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New England Poultry wrote:
Yor have got a photo for your abitare of La Fleche


Regardless of where the picture was taken from. The following statement is correct.

byhookorchook wrote:
In relation to another comment above I think the author is referring to La Fleche but that is usually black occasionally white or splash.


to which cuckoo can be added in the rare variants.

Note also the comments regarding the differences in horn and nostril shape between homozygotes and heterozygotes.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 10:35 am 
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The most interesting thing I have learnt in tens years is horns are at the end of the line in combs just like splash is for colour between black white then blue.

The HETREZYGOTE horned indivifual bred to rose gives rise to expressions of duplex for buttercup AND HOMOZYGOTE horn. What this means is ROSE must carry at least a recessive duplex gene not affecting it's rose appearance ie Dominant = V recessive = v.

Therefore you breed Houdan to Gold Spangled Hamburg (pleiotropic effect willow legs from mottle effect) and you give rise to individuals with duplex expression though not exclusively. The mottle elongates the spangle to appear alien eye. Breeding next to gold pencilled hamburg evens spacing and improves ground colour while individual specimens retain willow leg.

I expect Sicily/Egypt (Fayoumi) being significant Mediterranean Ports there would have been a mixing of fowl from many countries that ultimately brought about the Siciliana, not by breeders but by serendipity. This occurred on the farm at Cootamundra where I sourced the original male bird mid 2005 that led me to understand the dynamics of what took lace. Also a chance comment by Gladys Knight at Mountain District auction around 2003 where she said she once got buttercups from Houdan. At the time I was naive and incredulous but followed the course.

I put an article into Australasian Poultry recently that described a lot of this.

Also in that article I said I found the alien eye pattern at the end of the tip of feather of the Gold Spangled hamburg. The spangled and the Houdan both very old breeds started all this off I reckon centuries ago.

The Huguenots from Frances possessed these fowl and during persecution took them to all places in Europe including UK (moonies) . Much food for thought.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 11:51 am 
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Australasian Poultry Article

In this article, I describe for the first time anywhere in the world how to close an open buttercup comb. Previously thought to take many years of selective breeding, it is simply to go through to the horn duplex, then comb back through rose. Just like going through to splash, then coming back to blue or black.

edited to add pdf for viewing.



Attachments:
buttercups from scratch_Layout 1.pdf [41.95 KiB]
Downloaded 32 times

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Last edited by byhookorchook on Wed Oct 16, 2013 10:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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